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Author Topic:   What's the difference between Islam and Radical Islam?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 103 of 146 (801962)
03-10-2017 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
03-10-2017 3:34 PM


Re: The Way It Really Is
I give up. Believe whatever nonsense you want.

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 Message 98 by Phat, posted 03-10-2017 3:34 PM Phat has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 107 of 146 (801966)
03-10-2017 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
03-10-2017 3:40 PM


Re: The Way It Really Is
I certainly hope I drive people away from your false Jesus.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 108 of 146 (801968)
03-10-2017 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by PaulK
03-10-2017 3:36 PM


Re: The Way It Really Is
Allah is today the generic name of God but it started out as the name of one of a pantheon of gods in mecca, that Mohammed elevated to the status of God on the same level as the Biblical God.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 111 of 146 (801972)
03-10-2017 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by PaulK
03-10-2017 4:07 PM


Re: The Way It Really Is
Allah was the main god in a whole pantheon of gods, Mohammed made into the monotheistic God. El in the Bible refers to the One Creator God. "The god" Allah was one of many which is polytheism, not monotheism. Mohammed invented a new meaning for it.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 112 of 146 (801973)
03-10-2017 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
03-10-2017 4:10 PM


Re: The Way It Really Is
The truth can't alienate anyone from the true God, but your false fleshly God that you actually think is the same as the murdering god Allah, and your "Jesus" who is a saccharine nonentity that appeals to fleshly fallen humanity, ought to be rejected by all.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 116 of 146 (801979)
03-10-2017 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
03-10-2017 4:30 PM


It's the truth that wins people in the end, not pretty lies
Far as I can see, Phat, you're the one who's attacked me. I wrote about the history of Islam, you responded without addressing any of it, just basically saying how knowing some Muslims was better than knowing the truth about Muslim history. I said you were wrong, you eventually got into personally attacking me personally about how I turn people away from Jesus -- by telling the truth about Islam? ;Apparently that's what you think. But in your posts you've revealed how little you know when you said we worship the same God. Do you really think you can attract people to Christ by saying something so false? There is nothing similar between Islam and Christianity, I mean nothing. Their God is completely different from ours in every possible way, and their "prophet" Mohammed "converted" people by slaughtering those who refused his religion. How are you going to win Muslims to Christ by saying their religion is the same as Christianity? If they're the same they have no reason to change. They even think they recognize Jesus because he's called a prophet. They need to be shown how wrong that is.
Is that attacking you? Pointing out how wrong you are in ways that can be proved if you'd only stop trusting in your "intuition" and learn a few things? I finally did get to the point where I said your God and Jesus are false, and what's the point of winning someone to a false Christ? Who is that "helping?" But you are certainly attacking me by saying I drive people away from Christ by telling the truth about Islam. Anybody turned away by such truth isn't open to Christ anyway.
All this is just you being offended that I say you are wrong. And boy are you wrong -- so you have to attack me personally.
Most Muslims don't learn the history of Islam. At least one I read about turned away from Islam by taking the time to learn about that history. When he learned the truth it disgusted him. I can't remember if he became a Christian at that point or not but I think he eventually did. You don't serve them or Christ by avoiding such truths.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 117 of 146 (801983)
03-10-2017 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by PaulK
03-10-2017 4:22 PM


Re: The Way It Really Is
Allah was the main god in a whole pantheon of gods, Mohammed made into the monotheistic God. El in the Bible refers to the One Creator God
In reality El originally referred to the head God in a whole pantheon of Gods - and there are traces of that still in the Bible. Yahweh, too, was originally part of a pantheon.
Not according to the Bible. "El" may have had other meanings among the pagan nations but in the Bible El is the generic name for the One Creator God. I suppose you mean the "us" in Genesis: "Let us make man...?" I'm sure you know that in the Biblical context that refers to the Trinity: ONE God in three Persons, not to a pantheon. The Bible is relentlessly and consistently monotheistic. Jehovah was never a part of a pantheon, the point of the Bible is to reveal His nature and character and that is as the One and Only Creator God. Perhaps you get this stuff from the "scholars" you put above the Bible? They will always lead you astray. Many of the most famous of them don't believe in much of it. How can you find truth that way? Truth is only found by believing the Bible, period. The scholars will only mislead you.
Besides, if Paul could say that the Greeks worshipped God as "the unknown God" why would it be impossible for the Arabs to worship God as part of their pantheon ?
Paul needed a way to talk to the polytheistic and intellectual Greeks about Christ in a peculiarly inhospitable environment. He may have thought the "unknown god" they included in their pantheon represented the Creator God, that's not clear. but in any case he was able to use the idea to teach them about the true God. And he quoted a Greek poet about the nature of the true God "in whom we live and move and have our being" so he did know they had some recognition of the one true God.
If he'd had Islam to deal with and managed to avoid getting his head whacked off before half a minute of preaching, perhaps he would have made use of Allah in a similar vein. But there doesn't seem to be a Creator God in Mohammed's world before he elevated Allah to that status. Even as "the god" Allah appears as merely the main one of many.
Further, Muhammad did not simply promote a pagan God to the one God, his ideas about God came from Christianity and Judaism, too.
Yes they did. It was the pagan Arabs who worshiped the pantheon he wanted to convert to the one God, but not to the God of Judaism or Christianity but to this new one he got from "the angel Gabriel" he believed was superior to both. Things would have been so different if only Mohammed himself had converted to Judaism or Christianity instead of coming up with this brand new religion made up of bits and pieces of both which he didn't understand anyway, and then spreading it by the sword.

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 Message 113 by PaulK, posted 03-10-2017 4:22 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 121 of 146 (801998)
03-11-2017 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Dr Adequate
03-11-2017 2:59 AM


OK, I accept your definition of Allah
OK, I think there are good arguments that it's the name of the moon god, which Mohammed elevated to the status of universal Creator God, throwing out all the other gods in the pantheon, and it's hard to see how a god that was originally one of the pantheon, even if the main god, got the title "THE god," but I'll give that up and accept the linguistic derivation.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 122 of 146 (801999)
03-11-2017 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Modulous
03-10-2017 10:09 PM


Re: The Way It Really Is
Not according to the Bible
According to the Quran Allah is not part of a pantheon, he is the One God the God of Abraham and Moses and Jesus.
He can't be because there is no similarity between them.
The thing is, there are written histories of how Mohammed created Islam that show how he took the moon god called Allah, main god in the pantheon at Mecca, and elevated it to the status of one true God on the level of the Biblical God, despite the fact that there are no similarities between it and the Biblical God.
The Biblical God is shown throughout the Bible to be the one and only God, and this is argued over and over and over because He is being revealed as THE God in a world of polytheistic and human-sacrificing religions. God chose Abraham out of that environment to become the first of a new nation of followers of the one true God among the heathen polytheistic nations. There is no written history apart from the Bible about these events.
Paul needed a way to talk to the polytheistic and intellectual Greeks about Christ in a peculiarly inhospitable environment. He may have thought the "unknown god" they included in their pantheon represented the Creator God, that's not clear.
So did Mohammed.
OK. (Speaking of course of the moon god Allah and not of an "unknown god" which was a Greek deity.)
Even as "the god" Allah appears as merely the main one of many.
Not according to the Quran.
Yes the Quran does treat Allah as the universal Creator God. However, again, there are written histories that show he was originally one god among many at Mecca before Mohammed decided to model him after the Biblical God and get rid of the polytheism that had formerly been the religion.
It was the pagan Arabs who worshiped the pantheon he wanted to convert to the one God, but not to the God of Judaism or Christianity but to this new one he got from "the angel Gabriel" he believed was superior to both.
Not according to the Quran.
True, but the pre-Islamic history of the region is known so it is known that the model for the God of Islam was the moon god Allah of the original polytheistic religion.
And the symbol of Islam, the crescent moon, retains that original derivation.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 123 of 146 (802001)
03-11-2017 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by PaulK
03-11-2017 2:09 AM


Polytheistic origins of Islam
Not according to the Bible. "El" may have had other meanings among the pagan nations but in the Bible El is the generic name for the One Creator God
As I said, there is an exact parallel.
Even if there was a vague memory of the one true God in the polytheistic religions, He was not worshipped in any special way apart from all the other gods, was barely above them at all, being at best the No. one god in a pantheon. The Bible for instance is full of references to the gods of the surrounding nations, the ones the people actually followed, and "El" hardly figures at all among them. Dagon gets thrown to the floor by the presence of the Ark of God, for instance, Molech receives the sacrifice of children, which even seduced the Jews.
The whole point of the Bible was to reintroduce the true God whose memory had been lost after the Flood, while Satan who had won the right to rule humanity --because of Adam and Eve's disobedience of God -- installed his demon followers as the gods of the nations.
Some retained the memory: Shem was still alive in Abraham's time, but Abraham himself came from a family of polytheists. Of course he know of the true God, whose voice he recognized when he was called to leave Ur and go to Canaan. But as the history of Abraham's family is followed through Genesis, pagan idols still show up in the possession of the family, for instance Jacob's wife Rachel.
Those were the gods of the people of the region at the time, not the Creator God. It took a while for Jehovah to become the center of worship even in Abraham's family. Even after He is more or less worshipped as one and only God we find the people of Israel accepting a golden calf idol as their god -- soon after leaving Egypt. Idolatry dies hard.
So, I don't think El figured much in the pagan religions. (There were some true believers of course: Job is an example.)
When will you learn that making poorly-considered excuses is not a winning debating strategy ?
?
I suppose you mean the "us" in Genesis: "Let us make man...?
No, I don't mean that, or not only that.
?
Perhaps you get this stuff from the "scholars" you put above the Bible?
By which you mean I trust real scholars more than I trust the men YOU put above the Bible.
Believers put themselves beneth the Bible, treating it as authority and not criticizing it as the "scholars" do. All the men whose views of the Bible I trust put themselves beneath the Bible in the same way.
They will always lead you astray. Many of the most famous of them don't believe in much of it. How can you find truth that way? Truth is only found by believing the Bible, period. The scholars will only mislead you.
An unprejudiced view is a far better way to find the truth than the gross prejudice of dogmatic belief.
But the scholars are demonstrably prejudiced against the revelation of the Bible. The Bible is presented to us as a revelation of God Himself by God Himself, and believing it is what a person must do with such a revelation. Jesus said it: "Repent and believe." You don't criticize God's word if you have any respect to it AS God's word.
And the fact that you choose lies and slander to fight against the truths found by scholars only demonstrates that you are no Christian.
Well, as they say, you are entitled to your opinion. In this world anyway.
And we know that when the book of Romans told you to obey the law of the secular authorities you appealed to a contradictory passage that you never found and probably doesn't exist to claim a loophole. Your belief in the Bible is not all you would have us believe.
I had no trouble finding the passage in question that I recall. It's in Acts 5:29:
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Paul needed a way to talk to the polytheistic and intellectual Greeks about Christ in a peculiarly inhospitable environment. He may have thought the "unknown god" they included in their pantheon represented the Creator God, that's not clear.
So your only counter is that Paul might have been lying. Do you really want to say that ?
if that's the only option then he had to know it represented the Creator God, but I don't call making use of a teaching aid to be lying. It's certainly true that they needed to be introduced to the true Creator God because they DIDN'T know Him.
Yes they did. [That is Judaism and Christianity were sources Mohammed included in the Koran] It was the pagan Arabs who worshiped the pantheon he wanted to convert to the one God, but not to the God of Judaism or Christianity but to this new one he got from "the angel Gabriel" he believed was superior to both.
Which would make perfect sense if he was speaking for the real creator God of Abraham and Jesus as he claimed. And if the Allah of the Arabs was a distorted memory of that God - which the parallels with El hardly discourage - your argument goes to nothing.
Allah has nothing in common with the Biblical God, though yes, Mohammed may have viewed Allah as representing him. But as I argue above, the true God, even if vaguely remembered, was overshadowed by the idol gods in the polytheistic pre-biblical and pre-Islamic religions. And we do know that Allah was specifically identified as the moon god, which isn't much evidence that anyone regarded it as more than an idol among idols.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 119 by PaulK, posted 03-11-2017 2:09 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 126 of 146 (802015)
03-11-2017 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by jar
03-11-2017 6:45 AM


Re: Polytheistic origins of Islam
Even if there was a vague memory of the one true God in the polytheistic religions, He was not worshipped in any special way apart from all the other gods, was barely above them at all, being at best the No. one god in a pantheon.
First Faith, the polytheistic religions are much much older than any of the monotheistic religions.
According to secular history, but I follow Biblical history in which the first people knew the true God intimately, but then disobeyed Him and lost their spiritual connection with Him. At the same time their disobedience gave Satan, who had seduced them into disobedience, the right to become "the prince of this world" and rule over humanity in our fallen state. His demons became the "gods" of the many religions that sprang up, initially no doubt, from the human point of view with an eye to recapturing humanity's lost relationship with God, but rapidly devolving into worship of demons, with various kinds of sacrifices including human sacrifice. Some tribes of humanity acquired a lot of gods, for example India with something like 300 IIRC. the Roman and Greek pantheons were pretty impressive too. And of course Mecca had a fair number.
As I say above, some people retained some memory of the true God and here and there real saints also continued to exist, such as Job. But humanity needed rescuing from this state of affairs, needed rescuing from bondage to Satan, and from the sins that perpetuated Satan's rulership, so God promised to send a Savior for that purpose, the Anointed One or Messiah. He was first promised to Adam and Eve right after the Fall, and then the promise was repeated throughout the history of the Old Testament by various prophets of the Israelites. Then He came, and the New Testament is all about Him.
And now back to secular history:
Second, the Judaic God was not a the only God even in the Bible.
Oh yes He is; this is very clear in the Bible.
The existence of other Gods is affirmed throughout the Old and much of the new Testament.
And revealed to be demons, the demons who form all the pantheons of the polytheistic religions. There is only one God with a capital G, the Uncreated eternal God, but billions of "gods" with a lower-case g, who are the angels who fell with Satan and follow him, one third of the angels originally in heaven.
The three Judaic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam worship only one God and it is the very same God.
Not unless God chose the Jews AND told Muslims to kill them wherever they find them; Not unless Jesus is the Son of God AND God doesn't have a Son; also Miriam is the sister of Moses in the Bible and Mary is the mother of Jesus who lived about 1400 years later than Miriam, but in the Koran Mary is confused with Miriam. The differences among the three religions are quite clear to anyone who compares their writings.
However that says nothing about the existence of other Gods.
The rest of your post is simply made up stuff that gets marketed by the apologists but with no real Biblical support.
Again, the only other gods in the Bible are the demon "gods" who are tribal gods who have ruled over humanity since the Fall. They are also the demons who can possess people, at least oppress people, probably cause some kinds of physical and psychological problems, can confer or stimulate psychic powers, sometimes manifest as angels, or as the various apparitions of the Catholic "Mary" -- "Our Lady of Fatima," or of Medjugorje etc; work for witches and shamans, impersonate dead people, haunt houses, are probably the fabricators of UFO phenomena, and so on and so forth.
Jesus saves us from them.
There is only one true God in the Bible.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 131 of 146 (802027)
03-11-2017 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by ringo
03-11-2017 10:45 AM


Re: Radical Islam - a threat to our way of life?
You've bought some false history there. Overall jihad by the sword was consistently used against Jews and everybody else throughout the 1400 year Caliphate. And I don't consider the RCC to represent "Christians."

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 134 of 146 (802031)
03-11-2017 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Modulous
03-11-2017 10:54 AM


Re: names
You're right the passage about the stone saying kill the Jew isn't in the Koran, it's in other equally authoritative writings:
Muhammad says that one day the very trees and stones will help Muslims to kill Jews
He says it in both Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, Islam's two most canonical hadith collections:
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
I heard Allah's Apostle [Muhammad] saying, "The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, 'O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!' "
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "
Some Christians have believed Jesus was not the son of God.
That means they aren't Christians.
also Miriam is the sister of Moses in the Bible and Mary is the mother of Jesus who lived about 1400 years later than Miriam, but in the Koran Mary is confused with Miriam
According to the Old Testament, Jesus was Moses' assistant. He even gets a whole book dedicated to him. The name 'Mary' in Greek is Μαρία. In the Old Testament the sister of Moses is Μαριάμ. It's the same name. Some people share names, and some names have multiple variants.
Jesus is called Isa in Arabic Ieusu in the Latin, Iēsous in the Greek, if you go from Hebrew to English it is Joshua or Yeshua. Moses is called Musa. Abraham is Ibrahim in Arabic, Abraam in Greek, . The languages are different, and when you translate between multiple languages, choices are made and sometimes different sounding names emerge by the time you reach English. Heck, just look at Cristbal Coln I mean Cristoforo Colombo - I mean Christopher Columbus. Same guy each time, would you believe.
I guess if there were no reality and lots of people didn't have the same name who lived thousands of years apart and lived entirely different lives and had completely different character, your linguistic gymnastics might not be the complete waste of time it unfortunately is.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 136 of 146 (802043)
03-11-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Modulous
03-11-2017 11:11 AM


Re: names
v There is no such thing as equally authoritative writings.
Sorry you're wrong. The hadiths are just as authoritative as the Koran and in fact the Hadiths are usually considered necessary for understanding the Koran. And I think there are other authoritative writings but they are escaping me at the moment.
r

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 140 of 146 (802060)
03-11-2017 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by LamarkNewAge
03-11-2017 5:06 PM


Re: Allah as the moongod sin is a western urban legend
As I said, Abraham came from a polytheistic culture. What's your point?

This message is a reply to:
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