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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 46 of 1484 (802142)
03-12-2017 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Modulous
03-12-2017 12:11 PM


Because voting someone into high office doesn't validate or legitimize their sin like baking a cake, taking photographs or arranging flowers does. Obv.
ALMOST there, but you missed the point that this is not about personal sin, it's about the meaning of marriage as an ordinance of God.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 47 of 1484 (802143)
03-12-2017 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
03-12-2017 3:26 PM


I have such a headache after being taken on the ride through your bumpy logic I think I'm going to have to lie down.
Getting married is a contract between two people and the government.
Legitimizing this is not a legitimizing a claim to holy matrimony, the sacrament of God bringing a man and a woman together and joining them as one in a bond that cannot be separated by man.
If you still think the government can sanctify or claims to sanctify partnerships in holy matrimony, you are free not enter a business where you will be legally obliged to take part in it. If you are already in such a business you can change your business model or get out of the business.
With me so far?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 3:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 3:47 PM Modulous has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 48 of 1484 (802144)
03-12-2017 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Modulous
03-12-2017 3:36 PM


Re:
Well, getting out of such businesses is probably what the law is going to force a lot of Christians to do. Hope it makes you all happy to be the instrument of such injustice.
God didn't say anything about the validity of any particular method of uniting people, but we were open to the idea of a civil contract and instead what we got was specifically marriage. A wedding cake is a traditional emblem of a marriage.l Marriage is an ordinance of God, however it is performed.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Modulous, posted 03-12-2017 3:36 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 03-12-2017 3:57 PM Faith has replied
 Message 53 by Modulous, posted 03-12-2017 4:28 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 1484 (802145)
03-12-2017 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
03-12-2017 3:47 PM


Marraige is a secular contract.
Faith writes:
Marriage is an ordinance of God, however it is performed.
Again Faith, that is simply factually wrong. You might believe something like that but is is still factually wrong and just ignorance or denial of reality.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 3:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 4:05 PM jar has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 50 of 1484 (802146)
03-12-2017 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
03-12-2017 3:07 PM


Re: Personal sin isn't the reason
Trump's sins are greatly exaggerated by the Left, especially if you are comparing him to Hillary and Bill, and in a better world I'd take personal sins into account more than I think appropriate in this time of rampant sin, but for the most part personal sins are a person's own business
We know you are blind to it but Trump's sins are mostly all exaggerated by Trump himself in his own words.
So, if someone else sins, that makes Trump's sins not count? Why compare him to the Clintons? By your own reasoning here their sins are canceled out by Trump's. I guess I would compare him to Stalin or Hitler or Kim Jong-un, but that's just because I think if he manages to stay in power he will rival them in the damage he causes.
Trump's sins are horrific if compared to Stephen Hawking. Your reasoning here about gay marriage is just as flawed as your reasoning on every other subject you have argued at EvC.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 51 of 1484 (802147)
03-12-2017 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
03-12-2017 3:57 PM


Re: Marraige is a secular contract.
You know nothing.
Marriage is performed in lots of different ways in different cultures and different circumstances. In ancient Israel, and probably the Middle East in general and lots of other places, it was just a matter of the man taking the woman into his home, tent or whatever, in a public way, no ceremony otherwise. It's a universal ordinance for all people in all times, it doesn't have to be performed by a religious leader for it to be a union ordained by God.
Even when ceremonies were involved I'm not sure any religious ceremony was necessarily part of it until more recent times. There was a week-long wedding feast in Israel, but no mention in the Bible of any religious ceremony.
ABE: The hints in the Bible to wedding events picture mostly the man getting a home for the couple to live in while the bride waits for him to come and get her, and then he comes and takes her to the place he has prepared for them to live. That and the wedding feast are mentioned, no wedding ceremony as such. Perhaps sometimes there was such a ceremony but the Bible doesn't mention it and leaves the impression it's not necessary.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 03-12-2017 3:57 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 03-12-2017 4:19 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 1484 (802148)
03-12-2017 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
03-12-2017 4:05 PM


Re: Marraige is a secular contract.
Faith writes:
You know nothing.
Hint.
I know we are in the US in 2017 discussing marriage in the US in 2017.
Marriage is a secular contract.
Gay marriage is not an attack on Christianity.
It really is that simple Faith.
And Faith, you know nothing. Even in Biblical times marriage was a secular contract. Learn what is necessary for a valid Jewish marriage.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 4:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 4:28 PM jar has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 53 of 1484 (802149)
03-12-2017 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
03-12-2017 3:47 PM


Re:
Well, getting out of such businesses is probably what the law is going to force a lot of Christians to do. Hope it makes you all happy to be the instrument of such injustice.
Christians have been the instruments of injustice against gay folk for so long, I have difficulty working up sympathy. Perhaps you should have considered who you pissed on on the way up, realizing you might meet them on the way down?
God didn't say anything about the validity of any particular method of uniting people, but we were open to the idea of a civil contract and instead what we got was specifically marriage.
If 'marriage' is a sacred term, you should be complaining that government is involved in it in any way whatsoever. As it turns out, whether it is a 'sacred' term or not, it is also a profane one.
Marriage is an ordinance of God, however it is performed.
Really? Even when it's two people of the same sex? Or bigamy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 3:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 4:29 PM Modulous has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 54 of 1484 (802150)
03-12-2017 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
03-12-2017 4:19 PM


Re: Marraige is a secular contract.
Marriage being a secular contract in today's world does not change its status as an ordinance given by God. It doesn't matter how the marriage is brought about, marriage is an ordinance of God. Different cultures do marriage in lots of different ways. No matter what the way marriage is an ordinance of God.
Legalizing gay marriage means anyone who regards it as a violation of God's law is forced by the law to accept it as valid or refuse to accept it and take the consequences. That means it IS an attack on Christianity just as the law of Caesar worship was an attack on Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 03-12-2017 4:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 03-12-2017 4:49 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 55 of 1484 (802151)
03-12-2017 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Modulous
03-12-2017 4:28 PM


Re:
No, only when it is between one man and one woman because that IS the ordinance of God.
But it doesn't matter if it's sealed by a government license or any other means, it is an ordinance given by God.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Modulous, posted 03-12-2017 4:28 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Modulous, posted 03-12-2017 4:50 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 56 of 1484 (802152)
03-12-2017 4:42 PM


There seems to be a false idea that because something is ordained by God it's a "religious" thing, but of course it isn't. God made everything in the universe, ordained everything in the natural world. The natural world is natural, not a religious thing. So marriage is just the way God ordained families to exist, children be born and so on. An atheist's marriage is just as much ordained by God as a Hindu's or a Native American's, one initiated in a religious ceremony or one initiated by a state license or one initiated by publically moving in together. There's only one true form of it and that is one man and one woman and cultures violate that all the time, but the ordinance is still in operation with or without violations of it.

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 57 of 1484 (802153)
03-12-2017 4:48 PM


Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 58 of 1484 (802154)
03-12-2017 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
03-12-2017 4:28 PM


Re: Marraige is a secular contract.
Faith writes:
Marriage being a secular contract in today's world does not change its status as an ordinance given by God. It doesn't matter how the marriage is brought about, marriage is an ordinance of God. Different cultures do marriage in lots of different ways. No matter what the way marriage is an ordinance of God.
We know you assert that but again, your beliefs have nothing to do with the factual reality.
Faith writes:
Legalizing gay marriage means anyone who regards it as a violation of God's law is forced by the law to accept it as valid or refuse to accept it and take the consequences.
That is a reasonable summary.
Faith writes:
That means it IS an attack on Christianity just as the law of Caesar worship was an attack on Christianity.
And there you go posting really stupid things again.
It does not mean it is an attack on Christianity just as the law of Caesar was not an attack on Christianity as has been explained to you in this very thread.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 4:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 4:51 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 59 of 1484 (802155)
03-12-2017 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
03-12-2017 4:29 PM


Re:
No, only when it is between one man and one woman because that IS the ordinance of God.
So what's the problem then? Gay marriage is not an ordinance of God. Nobody is forcing you to say, believe or act like it is. Baking a cake does not make the statement 'I legitimize this as an ordinance of God' - so what's the issue?
But it doesn't matter if it's sealed by a government license or any other means, it is an ordinance given by God.
Does this all come down to the fact that they use word 'marriage' to describe it? Sounds like the ridiculous legalism of the Pharisees to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 4:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 4:56 PM Modulous has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 60 of 1484 (802156)
03-12-2017 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
03-12-2017 4:49 PM


Re: Marraige is a secular contract.
It's SO funny when people at EvC tell me how such and such was "explained" to me. That really makes me laugh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 03-12-2017 4:49 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
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