Are you kidding!?. We have a LAW that says there is such a thing as a marriage between homosexuals. MARRIAGE LICENSES are issued to confirm it, regular standard marriage licenses, not some special form of contract, ordinary marriage licenses, making gay marriage the equivalent of heterosexual marriage. It is a LAW so we HAVE to obey it or suffer the consequences.
ABE: Actually, strictly speaking it isn't a law and shouldn't be regarded as a law because it was initiated by the Supreme Court, not the legislature in one of the many usurpings of law the SCOTUS has become famous for. It's treated as law, however, it is enforced as law, even though it is in actual reality an illegal law.
Also, what IS this arrogant insistence that a Christian is "wrong" about such a decision?
That would be because they *are* wrong Faith. And, by the way, it's only a few of those people that call themselves Christians - but quite plainly aren't - that concern themselves about such trivial things and blow them up into iconic, preposterous proportions.
You think they LIKE turning people away? I can assure you they do not. It was kind of an agony for the Oregon bakery couple who don't have an anti-gay bone in their bodies. For them and the others it's strictly a matter of obedience to God.
I don't know them or know their story, but they're a business - this is just another pain in the arse regulation you have to deal with pragmatically. You put policies in place for such things.
One more thing. It should be mentioned that Muslim bakeries are either not targeted for wedding cakes by gay couples, or turn them away without being sued. They will not make a wedding cake for gays either, so why are they exempt from the consequences of discriminating against them?
They're not exempt. Neither am I.
I've never seen a Muslim cake-baker though have you. You know you're obsessing about Muslims don't you?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
ABE: Actually, strictly speaking it isn't a law and shouldn't be regarded as a law because it was initiated by the Supreme Court, not the legislature in one of the many usurpings of law the SCOTUS has become famous for. It's treated as law, however, it is enforced as law, even though it is in actual reality an illegal law.
Again, that is simply another example of your ignorance as has been explained to you in the past. The decisions by the SCOTUS is one of the three Supreme Sources of Law in the US. It cannot be illegal.
It really is that simple Faith. Learn a little about the US and it's Constitution.
There are in fact Muslim bakeries and someone went into one with a hidden camera and asked for a wedding cake for him and his male partner and the owner said he wouldn't do it. The would be customer finally had to get specific that this was for a gay wedding so that the refusal was clearly a refusal for that reason. Anyway, yes there are Muslim bakeries that do make wedding cakes.
Three sources of LAW you say? Whatever happened to the division of powers, one legislative or the maker of law, one executive and one for judging cases on the basis of the law. The Supreme Court is not supposed to make law.
Does this all come down to the fact that they use word 'marriage' to describe it? Sounds like the ridiculous legalism of the Pharisees to me.
Are you kidding!?. We have a LAW that says there is such a thing as a marriage between homosexuals.
A simple 'yes' would have sufficed.
Just because the government calls something marriage, doesn't mean whatever the government calls marriage is an ordinance of God. So what's the problem?
MARRIAGE LICENSES are issued to confirm it, regular standard marriage licenses, not some special form of contract
Marriage licences are a special form of contract.
It is a LAW so we HAVE to obey it or suffer the consequences.
The law that the Christians have broken is the law that says you have to open your public accommodation, your business, to everyone regardless of their race, sex, religion or sexual orientation. The Christians are trying to find reasons to not always follow this law by whining about religious rights.
But again, nobody is forcing them to believe the government institution IS the ordinance from God. They are different rites. Sometimes they are the same, perhaps - but as you have already said, this is not always the case. I am perfectly happy if you want to believe gay marriage is not ordained by God, but I don't see why anybody has to refuse to provide services for gay marriages ordained by the government.
Acknowledging something ordained by the government is not the same as acknowledging something is ordained by God. Isn't that kind of your entire point anyway?
Actually, strictly speaking it isn't a law and shouldn't be regarded as a law because it was initiated by the Supreme Court, not the legislature
Only if you want to say the Constitution isn't law. Again, Christians were perfectly happy with the government legitimizing marriage and conferring benefits to it. This was, apparently, their mistake. In trying to mix their religious rites with government benefits they opened the door to the equal protection clause.
It's treated as law, however, it is enforced as law, even though it is in actual reality an illegal law.
In law, whether something is an illegal law is decided by SCOTUS. If you Christians disagree with this, you should have done something about this before you started losing ground - instead of using the Supreme Court when it suited you.
There are in fact Muslim bakeries and someone went into one with a hidden camera and asked for a wedding cake for him and his male partner and the owner said he wouldn't do it. The would be customer finally had to get specific that this was for a gay wedding so that the refusal was clearly a refusal for that reason.
And you suspect another conspiracy I suppose.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
It's hard to believe you take yourself seriously with such a post, most of which I've already answered. Contortions and rationalizations so weird again I have to take a nap to recover.
I think it's possible that Christian businesses are specifically targeted, yes. Not even necessarily by the gay couple, more by legal entities who step in to make an issue of it, like the ACLU.
It's hard to believe you take yourself seriously with such a post, most of which I've already answered. Contortions and rationalizations so weird again I have to take a nap to recover.
Let me know when you want to have a civilized discussion.
Three sources of LAW you say? Whatever happened to the division of powers, one legislative or the maker of law, one executive and one for judging cases on the basis of the law. The Supreme Court is not supposed to make law.
The Supreme Court is the final authority on interpretations of the US Constitution and the SCOTUS gets to decide what laws apply. In this instance it is the anti-discrimination provisions of the US Constitution and the Laws passed by Congress that they were interpreting.
No new laws were made by the SCOTUS.
AbE:
Another chance to learn stuff Faith.
Issues only get to the Supreme Court by moving through the lower courts first. Anyone that tells you the Supreme Court creates new laws is simply ignorant or more likely lying to you.
That is just not how the system works. The fools at the bakeries first had to break a local or Federal law that was already in existence. That is how the process starts.
Once the issues move up through the various courts the Supreme Court can decide to hear or not hear the case.
But the Supreme Court does not originate or start the process or write the laws.
I think it's possible that Christian businesses are specifically targeted, yes.
Possibly. There are activist gays that think that they can make progress by outing law breaking bigots. Personally, I think they are doing more harm than good. And, they've won, so celebrate and let the bigots die out naturally.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
What happened when they were reported to the authorities?
They weren't reported to the authorities because the person making the video knew perfectly well that the shop didn't make wedding cakes. Also, he didn't suffer any actual loss. In fact, he profited from the video.
It seems to me that going against this supposed ordinance would require interfering with heterosexual couples marrying. Allowing gay marriage does not do that.
And there is no ordinance prohibiting the government from granting the purely secular legal status of marriage to gay couples.
You'd have a better case that the ban on polygamy is a violation of "God's ordinance"
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