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Author Topic:   Fake polls, fake news
Faith
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Posts: 23985
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 691 of 710 (802041)
03-11-2017 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 690 by jar
03-11-2017 10:53 AM


Can't be punished for beliefs
America does not punish Christians, it punishes law breakers. That is what is so great about the US, you cannot get punished for your beliefs (at least before Trump & Fellow Travelers) but only for your behavior.

The Roman Empire does not punish Christians, it punishes law breakers. That is what is so great about the Roman Empire, you cannot get punished for your beliefs .... [Just for refusing to worship Caesar]

the RCC did not punish Bible believers or Jews, it punished law breakers. That is what is so great about the RCC, you cannot get punished for your beliefs .... [Just for being Jewish; or for translating the Bible into the vernacular, or for owning a Bible or refusing to affirm Transubstantiation, and they'll come up with new reasons when they bring back the Inquisition]

Communist China does not punish Christians, it punishes law breakers. That is what is so great about Communist China, you cannot get punished for your beliefs .... [Just for meeting with other believers to worship and pray except in a state-controlled "Church"]

tThe USSR didn't punish Christians, it punished law breakers. That is what is so great about the USSR, you cannot get punished for your beliefs .... [Just for meeting with other Christians to worship and pray]

The Babylonian Empire didn't punish believers in God, it punished lawbreakers.; That is what is so great about the Babylonian Empikre, you couldn't get punished for your beliefs.... [just for refusing to bow down to a statue of Nebuchadnezzar]

Islam does not punish Christians, it also punishes law breakers. That is what is so great about Islam, you cannot get punished for your beliefs .... AND for refusing to convert to Islam, and for refusing to pay the jizya, and for building a church, and for not wearing the burka or the hijab or whatever is required, and in general for living like a westerner...

Ther must be lots more but I'm running out of steam.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 690 by jar, posted 03-11-2017 10:53 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 692 by jar, posted 03-11-2017 12:19 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 694 by frako, posted 03-11-2017 1:26 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28446
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 692 of 710 (802045)
03-11-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 691 by Faith
03-11-2017 11:32 AM


Re: Can't be punished for beliefs
Correct Faith. In each example it is behavior not beliefs that were punished even though so many of those were simply made up and not reality.

Thank you for supporting what everyone has been telling you.

AbE:
But again, you really need to check actual history.

Islam did not punish Christians and still does not punish Christians in most cases.

Babylon did not punish people who believed in God, in fact they welcomed them into their society. That was one of the major threads in much of the Old Testament, the fact that so many Jews had become assimilated into Babylonians society and did not want to move back to the barbaric Judah and Israel.

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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xongsmith
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Posts: 1761
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 693 of 710 (802048)
03-11-2017 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 692 by jar
03-11-2017 12:19 PM


Re: Can't be punished for beliefs
Jar observes:

Islam did not punish Christians and still does not punish Christians in most cases.

In fact, who was it that raised a huge amount of their own money to repair the vandalized Jewish cemeteries recently? The muslim community.

And why is refusing to bake a cake on the same level as getting eaten by lions in the Colosseum for refusing to recant your religion?

SMH


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 692 by jar, posted 03-11-2017 12:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2678
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 694 of 710 (802049)
03-11-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 691 by Faith
03-11-2017 11:32 AM


Re: Can't be punished for beliefs
Qur'an 29:45-49 Surah Al-Ankabut (The Spider)
Recite what is sent of the Book by inspiration to thee and establish Regular Prayer: for Prayer restrains from shameful and unjust deeds; and remembrance of Allah is the greatest (thing in life) without doubt. And Allah knows the (deeds) that ye do.
And dispute ye not with the People of the Book except with means better (than mere disputation) unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say "We believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."
Qur'an 3:64-71 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran)
Say: "O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back say: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will)."
Ye people of the Book! why dispute ye about Abraham when the Law and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye no understanding?

Thers planty in the quoran about not harming jews and chrisitans unless they do harm to others. But in the end it dosent matter the bible also says dont kill and there have been countless deaths in the name of god.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 691 by Faith, posted 03-11-2017 11:32 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 28446
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 695 of 710 (802050)
03-11-2017 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 693 by xongsmith
03-11-2017 1:11 PM


Re: Can't be punished for beliefs
xongsmith writes:

And why is refusing to bake a cake on the same level as getting eaten by lions in the Colosseum for refusing to recant your religion?

Well, even though I did not make that comparison it is a great question. But in addition, that's another of those kinda/sorta/almost/notquite true tales. During the period when that happened refusing to recognize the Emperor as a God got you et regardless of the reason. All that was required of the Christians of the period was common courtesy. When in Rome do as the Romans do.

But again, all that was covered in the Bible stories in 2Kings 5:

quote:
17 “If you will not,” said Naaman, “please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the Lord. 18 But may the Lord forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I have to bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the Lord forgive your servant for this.”

19 “Go in peace,” Elisha said.


The issue for the Christians was not a matter of obedience to what the Bible says but rather as is so often the case, ignorance of what the Bible says.

Had they known the story of Naaman they would have known that they would be forgiven for acknowledging the claims of Rome.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Faith
Member
Posts: 23985
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 696 of 710 (802062)
03-11-2017 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 694 by frako
03-11-2017 1:26 PM


Re: Can't be punished for beliefs
So what? We know the Koran contradicts itself. It's nice to the Jews when Mohammed was trying to convert them. When they refused he murdered them and advocated continuing to murder them.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 23985
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 697 of 710 (802064)
03-11-2017 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 693 by xongsmith
03-11-2017 1:11 PM


Re: Can't be punished for beliefs
Gosh aren't Muslims NICE? Sure, if you ignore all the other things they advocate about murdering people. I know those videos are too much to watch but there's one where Imam after Imam preaches death to the infidel in one way or another, to Europe, to the Jews etc.

I didn't say punishment in America iks on a par with it in any of the rest of the list, I was OF COURSE showing the principle of the thing. It could get way worse if the Left gets its way.

You fail to understand that doing anything to legitimize a gay marriage is the same as being asked to renounce your religion.


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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9341
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 698 of 710 (802065)
03-11-2017 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 696 by Faith
03-11-2017 9:15 PM


Re: Can't be punished for beliefs
So what? We know the Koran contradicts itself. It's nice to the Jews when Mohammed was trying to convert them. When they refused he murdered them and advocated continuing to murder them.

Taking your statement at face value ... that would make the Koran even more anti-Semitic than Martin Luther.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


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 Message 696 by Faith, posted 03-11-2017 9:15 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6089
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 699 of 710 (802066)
03-11-2017 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 682 by Faith
03-11-2017 2:45 AM


Re: Seventh time, Faith
Faith responds to me:

quote:
You REALLY can't figure out what "validate a gay marriage" means to an individual Christian?

The only people who can "validate" a marriage are the people directly involved in the ceremony: The two people getting married and any officiant performing a ceremony over it.

People who rent furniture, make food, sell flowers, etc. are not "validating" the marriage. They have no connection to the marriage at all. They're not being asked to participate in the ceremony.

quote:
Your questions just look like an obscurantist insistence on a pedantic semantic point.

Your continued avoidance of the very simple questions just makes you look like a fool who knows that her answer doesn't actually rise to the level of being coherent.

quote:
Those Christians who have been punished for refusing to cater a gay wedding understand the Bible's definition of marriage to exclude a "gay marriage" and feel they MUST REFUSE TO DO ANYTHING THAT MAKES IT APPEAR THAT THEY CONSIDER SUCH A "MARRIAGE" TO BE LEGITIMATE.

But renting furniture, a hall, making food, selling flowers, etc., none of that "legitimizes" the marriage. You're not participating in the ceremony any more than a car salesman is involved in the driver's subsequent drunk driving or a school is involved with the student's subsequent use of the knowledge given.

quote:
Making a wedding cake is a very special custom service for a wedding

No, it isn't. You act like there's some sort of special wedding fondant that cannot be used for anything else.

I used to be a cake decorator, Faith. There is no difference between a wedding cake and a birthday cake.

Well, except for maybe price. Some unscrupulous bakers and florists will charge you more if you tell them that you're buying their products for a wedding. It's still the exact same thing as what you would be buying otherwise, but they'll charge you 30% more.

So no, a wedding cake is not a "very special custom service." It's a cake with a sweetened covering and some decorations, just like any other cake.

quote:
so they can't do that

If they can do it for a birthday, they can do it for a wedding. There is no difference.

quote:
arranging flowers for a wedding is also a specialized wedding service

Nope. There's nothing special about the arrangement of flowers that can only be done for a wedding. The flowers don't know what they've been cut for. The wire doesn't understand why it's holding the flowers together. The foam doesn't understand what the stems are being used for.

quote:
and of course so is taking photos of a wedding.

I used to do photography, too, Faith. There is no special film for weddings. The camera doesn't understand what it's taking a picture of. Light doesn't behave differently because there are two women wearing white dresses.

quote:
Some Christian owners of such businesses have decided they cannot do these things because they would be "validating" -- treating as legitimate -- something that violates God's ordinance of marriage.

Then they are free to not open their businesses to the public. They can be private contractors and thus pick and choose their clients.

It's why if you want your picture taken, Glamour Shots at the mall cannot tell you no while Anne Geddes can.

quote:
In today's paganized world that means they have to accept that they will be punished.

You don't seem to understand what the word "punished" means. Nobody is being punished for being Christian.

They are being punished for violating the law. Do you get a religious exemption from the law, Faith?

quote:
As I said, the Bible teaches that all human beings are related to each other,

Says who? Certainly not the Bible. Have you forgotten the Loving v. Virginia case? The lower courts ruled against the couple precisely because god created the races separate and did not intend for them to mix.

quote:
all having descended from one original set of parents. Racial divisions are irrelevant, so Christians have no problem validating -- treating as legitimate -- "interracial" marriages, and would freely supply the custom-made cake, the flowers and the photos for such a wedding.

But if someone's religious proclivities prohibited that, would they be justified in denying interracial couples?

Because it just happened down in Louisiana, Faith. A government official refused to sign the marriage license for an interracial couple citing their religious beliefs.

Were they justified in doing so? Does the law allow people to claim a religious exemption to the law when it comes to equal treatment on the basis of race?

If not, then why do you think you get to have one on the basis of sexual orientation?

This is how we know that this isn't about your god, Faith, and all about your political correctness. You're PC enough to despise being thought of as racist...

...and PC enough to relish being thought of as a homophobe.

quote:
abe: A friend of mine hosted a reception party for a girl in our church who had been a missionary nurse to Sudan and eventually married an Americanized Sudanese Christian -- one of the many who had fled Sudan during the Muslim persecutions of the Christians. My friend now frequently babysits the couple's two children.) /abe

Did you just pull the "some of my best friends are black" argument?

quote:
I hope that answers your questions.

Partially.

I'm looking for details, Faith. How does providing a cake "validate" anything the customer decides to use it for?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 682 by Faith, posted 03-11-2017 2:45 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6089
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 700 of 710 (802067)
03-11-2017 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 684 by Faith
03-11-2017 5:54 AM


Re: Seventh time, Faith
Faith writes:

quote:
You are entitled to your view of it, but so are the Christians who won't perform certain actions because they understand them as legitimizing something the Bible condemns.

Nope.

The law doesn't care what your "point of view" is.

Do you think you have a religious exemption to the law?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 684 by Faith, posted 03-11-2017 5:54 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3740
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 701 of 710 (802069)
03-11-2017 9:55 PM


Topic theme abandonment - Going into summary mode in 24 hours
See subtitle.

If someone wishes to pursue the "Fake polls, fake new" theme in greater depth, please start a new topic.

Adminnemooseus


Or something like that©.

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15496
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


(4)
Message 702 of 710 (802125)
03-12-2017 10:20 AM


More Fake News
The most recent jobs report was very positive, and Trump tweeted enthusiastically about it: "Great news. We are only just beginning. Together, we are going to #MAGA [Make America Great Again]!"

But up until his inauguration Trump dismissed the job reports as "totally fiction." See a list of the many times he has deprecated the jobs report as meaningless: 19 times Trump called jobs numbers ‘fake’ before they made him look good

Once again Trump makes clear that his definition of fake news is any report not favorable to him. Whether its true or not (and so far the evidence is that it *is* true when it's from a major news outlet like the New York Times, Washington Post, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc.) doesn't matter to him. He's a propagandist of the first rank.

--Percy


    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18242
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 703 of 710 (802270)
03-14-2017 10:22 AM


Fake polls use skewed questions, Fake news cherry picks information and lies about it
As posted in Message 338:

Ones at the bottom are less to un- reliable, at the top more reliable.

Left side is left leaning, right side is right leaning.

so looney-bin left is lower left while looney-bin right is lower right

Now I agree that the lower left are unreliable and tend towards fake headlines that are not supported in the body of the article and to articles that overstate the case.

ALL news is questionable, ALL polls are questionable, but some are way more questionable than others, and it is the duty of the READER to fact check articles and polls before posting them.

Especially if they are from the bottom half and the left or right 25%.

Data analysis for instance shows that people who watch Faux Noise Nutwerk (FNN) are worse informed about current and world events than people who do not watch ANY news.

In terms of polls, we only need to consider that FNN polling the highest viewer rating of the major networks, but they are the ONLY network watched by conservatives, while the others are middle or left leaning and they divide up the remainder of the viewing public. For instance it appears from the numbers, that combining CNN and MSNBC numbers they would beat FNN. This would be similar to an election with one conservative candidate against a couple of liberal candidates dividing up the majority votes. Like a 40-30-30 split or a 40-35-25 split.

And there are some structural factors involved as well. Visit any hotel or motel and see what is the default channel on the TV. Doctors offices and hospitals, same.

When you stand in the middle of a swamp of misinformation and call the rest of the world fake, that is fake news.

Enjoy


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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9341
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 704 of 710 (802282)
03-14-2017 12:35 PM


To the OP, "fake news" means news with a specific purpose of making Trump look bad. Similar PC is only applicable to folks on the left.

This is exactly the kind of double-think that is described in Orwell's 1984, namely language that makes it impossible to legitimately criticize one political side, while simultaneously dropping bombs on the left by conflating them with communists or fascists as the whim presents itself.

Well given that there are several threads designed to accomplish this very purpose, it is clear that this thread won't be missed.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15496
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 705 of 710 (802935)
03-22-2017 8:20 AM


Closing Remarks
No evidence of fake or false news by the mainstream media was identified in this thread. Obviously Trump's accusations of "fake news" only apply to news not favorable to him.

Concerning polls, a recent Gallup poll had Trump at his lowest approval rating yet of 37%, and the Rasmussen poll that tracks a different demographic group has tracked the Gallup poll, dropping to 45% at roughly the same time. Trump's approval rating is slowly recovering from his disastrous last week - yesterday Gallup was at 39% and Rasmussen was at 50%. There seems nothing fake nor fraudulent about either poll.

--Percy


    
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