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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Moose writes:
Two steps forward, one step back. If you don't take a step forward, you ain't gonna go forward.
It seems pointless to take the high moral ground is that is going to lead to a loss.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Gays have been served by Christian businesses regularly without a problem, until this law was passed that involve special orders that entail personal involvement for a gay wedding, which is strictly forbidden because of God's ordinance of marriage as for one man and one woman. Which of course is simply not true as you have been shown several times in this thread. The issue is not Christian issues but rather ignorance of so many Christians about what the Bible actually says. When Christians are taught to worship and evil vile picayune God and taught falsehoods about the Bible, who wrote the Bible and what the Bible actually says the result is Christians acting out of ignorance instead of God will. There is nothing in the Bible that proscribes even Christians from honoring and even celebrating a gay wedding and there are passages in the Bible that say that even common courtesy overrides Gods commandments. Above all we are charged to do for others as we wish others did for us. If Christians simply learned to be nice and not bigots then God would be happy.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
What about a cake that says "GAY PRIDE!" on it? The two guys that order it tell you specifically that it's NOT for a gay wedding, it's just for gaiety in general.
I've said many times that any cake that isn't specifically for a wedding is no problem....
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: The cake has to be personally constructed. That involves the baker personally in the gay wedding. So no. This is getting even weirder. Every wedding cake is personally constructed. The personal constructor is called a baker. The gay customer comes into the shop, says he's after a cake for a gay wedding, points to the picture of the cake he wants, holds out the cash. Can your baker provide the cake?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No.
It's the personal involvement that is the problem. The Christian baker can't PERSONALLY engage in something that serves a gay wedding. The florist can't personally arrange the flowers for a gay wedding, the photographer can't personally take pictures for a gay wedding. It's the personal involvement that compromises the Christian in a wedding that violates God's ordinance. Order a Danish and coffee, no problem, buy a chocolate cake out of the case, no problem, order a custom birthday cake, no problem. Personally constructed wedding cake, no. Buy hundreds of flowers, no9 problem, ask the floriest to arrange them for a gay wedding, no. Hire the photograph to take pictures at a birthday party, no problem. Just not a gay wedding.
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Diomedes Member Posts: 995 From: Central Florida, USA Joined:
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This is getting even weirder. Every wedding cake is personally constructed. The personal constructor is called a baker. The gay customer comes into the shop, says he's after a cake for a gay wedding, points to the picture of the cake he wants, holds out the cash. Can your baker provide the cake? What about this scenario: most supermarkets including the one near me create cakes that can be purchased from the shelf. i.e., it is a cake that has been baked (personally constructed) and is available for purchase. Now: a gay couple comes into the supermarket, sees the cake on the shelf, and indicates it would be perfect for their impromptu wedding. They are about to take the cake when out of nowhere, a screaming Christian banshee comes out of the bakery telling them they are sinners and cannot purchase that cake since its usage in a gay wedding would be an abomination to the baker's god. And the baker snatches the cake from their hands. The manager of the store comes over to see what the commotion is about, reviews what has transpired, and now has two options before him/her: Option 1: Indicate to the gay couple that he/she has to respect the poor persecuted Christian's batshit sensibilities and has to respect their religious views and thus indicates the baker was in the right for their behavior. Option 2: Fires the batshit baker, apologizes to the gay couple, hands them the cake, and tells them to have a nice day. Then again, perhaps my scenario is unlikely in light of the following:
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8552 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
The truth is that you and others are out to get US ... Yes we are. We are out to get rid of the True ChristiansTM My dearly departed uncle was a strong christian man. He was a Methodist Minister and the spiritual soul of the family. If I had been gay like one of my distant cousins my uncle would have and did counsel tolerance, acceptance and love as exemplified by his great hero Jesus. He did not teach bigotry or hatred and was not so insanely obsessed with who other people chose to love. He was a real christian, not the twisted abomination of Jesus' ideal practiced by True ChristiansTM.
Gays have been served by Christian businesses regularly without a problem, until this law was passed that involve special orders that entail personal involvement for a gay wedding, which is strictly forbidden because of God's ordinance of marriage as for one man and one woman. An excuse for the True ChristiansTM to show and practice their hate. Nowhere in there is any credence to the teachings of Jesus. You have abandoned his message of love for the errant black heart of old tribal hatreds.
The country has already gone to Hell, might as well take it to the max and lie about Christians too. Yeah, the country took a dark turn in that direction a few months ago to be sure, but your millennia of True ChristianTM history is quite well documented and well known. No lie about your brethren's evil workings in society and your desires to trample upon human conscience and freedom in your push for a theocracy. Yes, we are out to stop you.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes we are. We are out to get rid of the True ChristiansTM The sooner the better. I'm so tired of being here.
My dearly departed uncle was a strong christian man. He was a Methodist Minister and the spiritual soul of the family. If I had been gay like one of my distant cousins my uncle would have and did counsel tolerance, acceptance and love as exemplified by his great hero Jesus. He did not teach bigotry or hatred and was not so insanely obsessed with who other people chose to love.
// He was a real christian, not the twisted abomination of Jesus' ideal practiced by True ChristiansTM. It isn't loving anybody to oppose God's laws, but you don't say HOW he loved gays and perhaps you don't even know what he would have thought about a law violating God's Law. But Methodists are a liberal denomination these days so maybe he wouldn't object to such a law. I would consider that NOT loving anybody because gays like everybody else need to be saved and you can't save people if they don't know what offends God. You and everybody else here utterly misread everything I've been saying. / / Gays have been served by Christian businesses regularly without a problem, until this law was passed that involve special orders that entail personal involvement for a gay wedding, which is strictly forbidden because of God's ordinance of marriage as for one man and one woman.
/An excuse for the True ChristiansTM to show and practice their hate. Nowhere in there is any credence to the teachings of Jesus. You have abandoned his message of love for the errant black heart of old tribal hatreds. You like so many understand absolutely nothing about this subject despite all my efforts. Oh well. The only hatreds here are on your side, not mine. The Left reeks, drips, drools hatred and projects it onto their opponents. //We're the ones who suffer from this law and having to disobey it, funny how that gets ignored. / The country has already gone to Hell, might as well take it to the max and lie about Christians too.
/Yeah, the country took a dark turn in that direction a few months ago to be sure, but your millennia of True ChristianTM history is quite well documented and well known. No lie about your brethren's evil workings in society and your desires to trample upon human conscience and freedom in your push for a theocracy. / Yes, we are out to stop you. Thank yhou for admitting it. And again, the sooner the better. May I request a bullet to the brain? Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8552 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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May I request a bullet to the brain? You can request it but you won't get it. You will watch helplessly as your evil True ChristianTM values die of neglect exposed as the evil of civilization and abandoned by We the People. Yes, we will get you. We will eliminate your evil. But not so crudely as with a bullet in the head. More subtle. More satisfying. The long lingering death of an evil ideal swept onto the dung heap clutching and gasping as it is buried forever, forgotten.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Jesus said the gates of hell shall not prevail against His church, so there's nothing to worry about on that score. Maybe we'll get raptured off the planet though, that would be lovely. You won't miss us of course, but i'll feel bad about friends and family I'll leave behind.
The culture has already regressed to paganism and it will probably get much worse. Have you noticed the active witchcraft out there? The plans to bring down Trump by witchcraft? I suppose you think it's all a big joke? But witchcraft is Satan's main religion, it's about demons doing bad things to people. Christians will be praying against it but who knows if we'll prevail. The witches could succeed. I guess you'll cheer when that happens. Won't last long though, AZ. You've got everything upside down and backwards and I actually feel sorry for you. I hope you'll wake up from it. And others here too. All the gay people too. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Have you noticed the active witchcraft out there? The plans to bring down Trump by witchcraft? I suppose you think it's all a big joke? But witchcraft is Satan's main religion, it's about demons doing bad things to people. Nah, haven't heard about it and yes, I would certainly think it's something to joke about. But witchcraft is not Satan's main religion; Evangelical Fundamentalist Biblical Christianity is Satan's main religion. And it is also the source for what Jesus will term the Goats. But again, that still has nothing to do with the topic or the fact that Gay Marriage is not an attack on Christianity.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I was just about to take note of the fact that the posts here had gotten more acrimonious after Faith stopped posting, what with folks who largely agree on the idea of gay marriage going into bickering mode.
Yikes. I'm glad I did not post that crap. I could not have been more wrong. Welcome back Faith.
Faith writes: Have you noticed the active witchcraft out there? The plans to bring down Trump by witchcraft? Nope, but I am not "plugged in" to any source that would be reporting on such things. Yikes. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Correct, so drop all the other nonsense that you introduced. So we agree that suing someone is, in fact, calm and all that nonsense you introduced about the stress of reporting and suing is a red herring? Great.
I'm merely pointing out that it might turn out to be counterproductive. It might also turn out to be productive. What good does listing possibilities do, exactly?
I understand why you may want to extract revenge for past harm and with the hope of warding off future harm. That's not what I'm proposing. I'm telling you why it is harmful and why it is justified to seek redress for this these harms.
I'm merely pointing out that to do so by reacting to every slight of closed-minded bigots might turn out to be counterproductive. Being denied services isn't merely a 'slight'. A slight might be the cake maker saying 'A gay marriage? Why would you marry a fag?' or something. And again, saying something obvious that something might be counterproductive in some way is meaningless.
Please don't corrupt my argument. A cake is trivia and always will be. I'm not corrupting your argument. I'm explaining why being denied service is not trivial.
I understand that it stands for more than the cake, and I understand that you feel that you've suffered for being what you are, and it's fun to mess with bigots - maybe once. Gay people aren't a singular hive mind. Do you have any evidence of a same sex couple who habitually sue for being denied service? Otherwise people are generally indeed only doing it once. And it's not for fun. It's to redress actual, tangible, quantifiable injury.
Because the main battle has been won. What are talking about? There have been many battles, which is the main one? It wasn't 'same sex marriage' that's for sure. The main battle is equality, surely. This particular isn't about the battle to get same-sex marriage, it's about the battle to get equal access to services and goods mandated. That battle was won, but there is no point winning that battle if the mandate is not enforced. What's the point in having equal rights on paper, if you don't have it in practice?
You can ride above the slights of the bigots and just ignore them when the issue is trivial. Like a bloody cake. It's not trivial. Again, you trivialise the effects of being denied service because you are gay or a woman or black etc. It's the kind of oppressive bullying actions that has lead to self harm and suicide. I'm telling you this as someone has experienced it first hand. It's not the cake, it's the denial of service because you happen to be queer or female or... basically it's the not being treated with dignity, it's the not being treated with equality, it's not something that happens only once to a person, but rarely, on occasion, there is enough evidence it happened that you can take legal action. There is a real psychological harm in this, a psychological harm that is deleterious to health, in egregious cases it can be a significant contributive factor in the loss of life, in minor cases it can cause loss of sleep, long term raised blood pressure, chronic anxiety, despair and depression, this can lead to loss of employment, friends, and more. It IS NOT trivial.
You can't change them, you can only change society generally over time by simply being everyday citizens that don't reach for a law suit every time they feel offended by an idiot. It's not about being offended. The individuals aren't simply acting with the intent of changing society. They might be trying, in part, to change business practices, but they can only sue because they can show injury or loss of some kind. If I, and any other protected class, reached for a lawsuit everytime an idiot did or said something offensive I'd have thousands of lawsuits. I've never sued over being offended. None of the people I've seen in the cases under discussion have sued for being offended. Have you stopped and considered that by going around reframing this situation as being about being 'offended' about 'trivial' things, you might be causing the very harm, and enacting the counterproductiveness you are warning about? They said this kind of shit to black people after the civil rights victory, and our historical hindsight can see that this was harmful behaviour then. The said this about women. It was harmful then/now. Why is it not harmful to say it about LGBT folk today?
They apply to everybody. We all get annoyed by the behaviour of others. Some things are worth the effort of doing something about it, somethings aren't. I'm 99% sure that most denials of service, even when explicitly against a protected class, don't result in a lawsuit. There have been a handful over the past 2 years. Sometimes it really is worth the effort.
If you want to win the hearts of the nation you've just conquered on the battlefield, it's generally thought a bad idea to bayonet their wounded. The word magnanimous springs to mind. The battle was for the right to be able to take action against people who deny queer people services. It would have been pointless fighting if action isn't taken when bigots deny queer people services.
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JonF Member (Idle past 194 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Witches are targeting Trump. It's obvious it isn't going to have much effect.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
I'm saying the same things, you're saying the same things. Time to give it a rest.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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