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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 256 of 1484 (802504)
03-17-2017 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by LamarkNewAge
03-17-2017 9:45 AM


Re: What about divorce? I mean really now.
It isn't about sin, it's about the definition of marriage. Some Christians may feel it necessary to refuse service to a wedding of a divorced person, or refuse to decorate a cake for "Gay Pride" as somebody else brought up, or for "Wicca Week" or "Satan Day" or whatever, but this thread is about a particular law that puts Christians in the position of having to choose between God's law and human law. Again, there may be lots of situations that put a Christian's conscience to the test, but a law legalizing same-sex marriage is guaranteed to do that.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-17-2017 9:45 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by jar, posted 03-17-2017 9:59 AM Faith has replied
 Message 258 by PaulK, posted 03-17-2017 10:04 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 268 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-17-2017 11:39 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 257 of 1484 (802505)
03-17-2017 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
03-17-2017 9:54 AM


Re: What about divorce? I mean really now.
Faith writes:
Again, there may be lots of situations that put a Christian's conscience to the test, but a law legalizing same-sex marriage is guaranteed to do that.
Yet such a law does not put many Christian's conscience to any test.
So in reality it is not an attack on Christianity but only something that runs counter to the bylaws of certain Chapters of Club Christian.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 03-17-2017 9:54 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 03-17-2017 10:04 AM jar has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 258 of 1484 (802506)
03-17-2017 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
03-17-2017 9:54 AM


Be honest, Faith
In reality it is all about gay rights.
"Christians" have been fighting against gay rights for a while now, and this is just part of it. That is why your position doesn't make sense.
quote:
It isn't about sin, it's about the definition of marriage
You know, I don't think that God has ever offered an opinion on the meaning of English words let alone passed a law that dictates a particular definition for one.
quote:
... thread is about a particular law that puts Christians in the position of having to choose between God's law and human law
Which particular human law ? And where did God put a law that forbade baking cakes ?
quote:
Again, there may be lots of situations that put a Christian's conscience to the test, but a law legalizing same-sex marriage is guaranteed to do that.
Except we know that isn't true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 03-17-2017 9:54 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 259 of 1484 (802507)
03-17-2017 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by jar
03-17-2017 9:59 AM


Re: What about divorce? I mean really now.
Yet such a law does not put many Christian's conscience to any test.
So in reality it is not an attack on Christianity but only something that runs counter to the bylaws of certain Chapters of Club Christian.
It runs counter to the clear Biblical statement that God calls a man to leave his parents and cleave to his wife, by which they two become one flesh. One man, one woman, together one flesh. That's God's definition, written in the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by jar, posted 03-17-2017 9:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by PaulK, posted 03-17-2017 10:07 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 261 by jar, posted 03-17-2017 10:09 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 262 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-17-2017 10:24 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 260 of 1484 (802508)
03-17-2017 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
03-17-2017 10:04 AM


Re: What about divorce? I mean really now.
quote:
It runs counter to the clear Biblical statement that God calls a man to leave his parents and cleave to his wife, by which they two become one flesh.
Gay marriage does nothing to interfere with that in any way. That is so obvious that no sane person could deny it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 03-17-2017 10:04 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 261 of 1484 (802509)
03-17-2017 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
03-17-2017 10:04 AM


Re: What about divorce? I mean really now.
Faith writes:
It runs counter to the clear Biblical statement that God calls a man to leave his parents and cleave to his wife, by which they two become one flesh. One man, one woman, together one flesh. That's God's definition, written in the Bible.
So within your Chapter of Club Christian you are free to follow that rule and not marry someone of the same sex.
However the Bible says (as you have been shown repeatedly in this very thread) that even common courtesy is more important than God's laws and that that definition does not preclude a man leaving his parents to cleave to another man or a woman leaving her parents to cleave to another woman.
It is only ignorance that is being attacked Faith, not Christianity.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 03-17-2017 10:04 AM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 262 of 1484 (802511)
03-17-2017 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
03-17-2017 10:04 AM


Re: What about divorce? I mean really now.
It runs counter to the clear Biblical statement that God calls a man to leave his parents and cleave to his wife, by which they two become one flesh. One man, one woman, together one flesh.
I guess it's also sinful for orphans to get married.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 03-17-2017 10:04 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 263 of 1484 (802512)
03-17-2017 10:42 AM


So according to many of you, Christians are wrong in a variety of different ways to disobey the law legalizing same-sex marriage, but since that won't change the view of the Biblical definition of marriage for those who do disobey, I guess you can content yourselves with the knowledge that we'll be punished for it one way or another.

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by PaulK, posted 03-17-2017 10:51 AM Faith has replied
 Message 265 by jar, posted 03-17-2017 10:52 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 264 of 1484 (802513)
03-17-2017 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
03-17-2017 10:42 AM


In fact we are pointing out that your "Biblical definition of marriage" is irrelevant.
And if you don't care whether your stated reasons are valid or not then they obviously aren't your real reasons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 03-17-2017 10:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 03-17-2017 11:51 AM PaulK has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 265 of 1484 (802514)
03-17-2017 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
03-17-2017 10:42 AM


Faith writes:
So according to many of you, Christians are wrong in a variety of different ways to disobey the law legalizing same-sex marriage, but since that won't change the view of the Biblical definition of marriage for those who do disobey, I guess you can content yourselves with the knowledge that we'll be punished for it one way or another.
You still don't understand Faith. No one wants you to be punished except you. The rest of us pity you, feel sorry for you and pray that you will learn and forgo your desire to suffer.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 03-17-2017 10:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Faith, posted 03-17-2017 11:57 AM jar has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 266 of 1484 (802515)
03-17-2017 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
03-12-2017 3:07 PM


Re: Personal sin isn't the reason
None of this is about personal sins, it's about the ordinance of marriage given by God. It isn't about people being gay, it's about marriage and God's definition of it.
Out of curiosity, could you point me to where God clearly defines what constitutes marriage in His opinion? That would be helpful, thanks.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 3:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by jar, posted 03-17-2017 11:43 AM Aussie has not replied
 Message 278 by Faith, posted 03-17-2017 12:05 PM Aussie has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 267 of 1484 (802516)
03-17-2017 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
03-12-2017 3:07 PM


Re: Personal sin isn't the reason
Which is true but irrelevant to this topic, because disobeying any particular law isn't a reason to deny the person a wedding cake or any other kind of service.
I can think of only one exception: Remarriage after a divorce is a reason.And gay marriage. And that's because of the insult to God's ordinance of marriage, not the personal sin.
Wait. Soooo...you are saying that these same bakers should refuse service to re-married couples also? What about serving couples who have engaged or are engaging in premarital sex?

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 3:07 PM Faith has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 268 of 1484 (802517)
03-17-2017 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
03-17-2017 9:54 AM


Re: What about divorce? I mean really now.
quote:
It isn't about sin, it's about the definition of marriage. Some Christians may feel it necessary to refuse service to a wedding of a divorced person, or refuse to decorate a cake for "Gay Pride" as somebody else brought up, or for "Wicca Week" or "Satan Day" or whatever, but this thread is about a particular law that puts Christians in the position of having to choose between God's law and human law. Again, there may be lots of situations that put a Christian's conscience to the test, but a law legalizing same-sex marriage is guaranteed to do that.
So it isn't necessary for a businessman to "know" if a person was divorced before they remarry because just being between a male and female is good enough and passes the test?
This applies to wedding cake sellers, land-lords, hotel owners when they decide who to provide services to.
Should certain questions be asked to get certain answers?
Is this all a "don't ask, don't tell issue" or what exactly?
Is the very nature of same sex marriage just too "in your face" to you or what is it exactly?
If "sin" is not the issue, then renting a hotel room to a male and female, with a different last name doesn't bother you, I suppose.
Marriage is a sacred issue and an institution that can't be secular in any way?
This sounds so theocratic.
So would "civil unions" work then? Would cakes be o.k. if it was called a civil union?
These legal issues are really confusing me because I'm sense some massive inconsistency here.
(Everything gets confusing when the law is being discussed, because it is often a high precision - to the letter - technical sort of thing, which makes this inconsistent religious-motivated type of described/proclaimed "really really important" mortal sin and/or sacred institution declaration, over a highly selective type of violation, a really poor fit for a sophisticated law code of allowed/proscribed conduct among individuals and businesses)
Your position seems a poor fit for a non-chaotic type of society we should all want to live in.
Can't you see a minefield of discrimination being opened up by all of this? What if circumcision becomes a requirement for one to become a citizen with rights to marry in order to fit the sacred institution? Christians who couldn't show they were circumcised had to worship the profane Roman Gods, you know. You brought it up.
Don't mix sacred with profane.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 03-17-2017 9:54 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 269 of 1484 (802518)
03-17-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Aussie
03-17-2017 11:06 AM


Re: Personal sin isn't the reason
Aussie writes:
Out of curiosity, could you point me to where God clearly defines what constitutes marriage in His opinion? That would be helpful, thanks.
There is no clear definition but there are at least four methods described. The most common is when a contract binding under law is confirmed. This is the Legally Married that is recognized by God. Most marriage today in Christian Churches reflect this position including those that involve same-sex couples. This is the Christian definition and is based on passages from Romans 13 and Peter 2.
Romans 13:1-2 writes:
13 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
1 Peter 2:17 writes:
17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.
These are the basis for Christian Marriage today.
A second method is when a couple are involved in some public witnessed ceremony. This version predates Christianity but is also reflected in John 2 where the Jesus character attends a wedding feast.
The third method of God recognizing a marriage is when a couple have sexual intercourse but the third method is not clear since the Bible recognizes both wives and concubines but only the wife is considered married in God's eyes.
Finally there is the ketubah, a unilateral agreement usually between the parents of the people to get married where the future husband makes a commitment to provide specific financial and human support and that is witnessed and signed. It is NOT a religious or State document but totally secular.
Edited by jar, : religious document ---> religious or State document

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Aussie, posted 03-17-2017 11:06 AM Aussie has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


(1)
Message 270 of 1484 (802519)
03-17-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
03-12-2017 4:56 PM


Re:
We have a LAW that says there is such a thing as a marriage between homosexuals.
Actually, strictly speaking it isn't a law and shouldn't be regarded as a law because it was initiated by the Supreme Court
Despite Faith making two entirely contradictory statements in one breath (Just like Trump), It's fun listening to Christians defend their Christian Sharia law that they love to obey above their own secular government. So sweet.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 4:56 PM Faith has not replied

  
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