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Author Topic:   The Totalitarian Leftist Tactics against the Right
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 245 of 960 (801806)
03-09-2017 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by caffeine
03-09-2017 5:14 PM


caffeine writes:
In fairness, that chart is immigration - it's not refugees.
Good point.
And it's not 'into Europe' - it's based on statistics for two European countries (Ireland and Poland).
My interpretation of that Eurostat webpage is that the data are for the EU as a whole, but for that particular graph that the data from Ireland and Poland were provisional. If you look at the very similar graph for 2014 you'll see that its comment is consistent with this interpretation: "(1) Excluding Slovakia. Bugaria and Poland: provisional."
Thank you for the rest of that great information!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by caffeine, posted 03-09-2017 5:14 PM caffeine has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 291 of 960 (801899)
03-10-2017 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Faith
03-09-2017 11:43 PM


Faith writes:
If I've said anything even half as personally condemnatory of anyone as Percy said to me, I apologize. I'm happy to condemn liberal/leftist crapola, but not people.
You accused me of being a leftist, then went on and on about how stupid and blind leftists are. You're usually the first to become personal in any conversation, and you provoke personal responses by making outrageous claims about yourself, like how you're not racist or bigoted at the same time you're making racist and bigoted statements. Tell us again how you believe businesses have the right to refuse service to whoever they please and how you'd like to treat LGBT's. If you feel condemned then it was by your own words.
But I'm not looking for an apology. I'm only encouraging you to support your claims with quality sources.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Faith, posted 03-09-2017 11:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 292 of 960 (801900)
03-10-2017 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
03-09-2017 11:55 PM


Re: definitely twisted news
Faith writes:
The Liberal "resistance" to Trump is unprecedented in American politics.
No it isn't. The Republicans shut down the government for 16 days in 2013 over funding of the Affordable Care Act. Liberal resistance to Trump has a long way to go before it comes anywhere close to something like that.
It's no wonder we're sick and tired of the totalitarian Left.
You and New Cat's Eye really need to look up totalitarian.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 03-09-2017 11:55 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 317 of 960 (802200)
03-13-2017 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by Faith
03-13-2017 5:48 AM


Re: Russian ambassador talked to both Hillary and Trump, not about election
Faith writes:
This story might belong better on a thread about the election...
You mean like The 2016 United States Presidential Election?
The relevance is that the Left has been pushing hard on the fake news...
Fake polls, fake news would also have been a good thread for your post, but Adminnemooseus dropped it into summation mode for being hopelessly off-topic, suggesting that another thread for the topic be opened for discussing fake news.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Faith, posted 03-13-2017 5:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by Faith, posted 03-13-2017 12:02 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 345 of 960 (802493)
03-17-2017 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 343 by New Cat's Eye
03-16-2017 10:28 AM


Re: The racism is all coming from the Left
New Cat's Eye writes:
That people were freaking out when they were rescinded looks like they were upset that the feds weren't telling them how to think anymore. That, to me, seems totalitarian in nature.
This still misuses the word "totalitarian." By your definition, anything that is the law of the land is totalitarian.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-16-2017 10:28 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-17-2017 9:25 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 348 of 960 (802544)
03-17-2017 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by New Cat's Eye
03-17-2017 9:25 AM


Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
New Cat's Eye writes:
It's like if we were coworkers and every time we had a minor disagreement about something you ran to the boss to get them to implement a decision so you could force me to comply with your way.
You mean like trying to restrict women's access to abortion? You mean like issuing executive orders that discriminate against LGBT's? Shouldn't we be talking about the totalitarian right? No, of course not, "totalitarian" is the wrong word. Misguided, intolerant and authoritarian perhaps, but not totalitarian. Gee, ad hominem is so easy. We all could just sit in opposite corners and shout adjectives back and forth, instead of having a discussion. Or maybe we could just leave the name-calling out of the discussion?
Anytime you have to follow your use of a word with several "let me explain what I mean by that" paragraphs it's a strong hint that you're misusing the word.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Clarify first sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-17-2017 9:25 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-17-2017 1:53 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 351 of 960 (802556)
03-17-2017 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by New Cat's Eye
03-17-2017 1:53 PM


Re: Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
New Cat's Eye writes:
Shouldn't we be talking about the totalitarian right?
Start a thread, I'll comment there too.
But I wasn't arguing that the right is totalitarian. I was making an absurd argument to show how the word can be misused in either direction. I'm not on the left or right and I think the name-calling from both sides is ridiculous and beside any points being made.
...misusing the word.
Pssh, don't give me that pedantic crap; words are defined by how they are used.
So you're going to provide your own word definitions and require everyone else to use them too? How Faithish, totalitarian even.
If I say a song is cool are you going to question me on how a song can have a temperature?
That's common usage - it's in the dictionary.
Perhaps there's a misunderstanding on common word definitions at the root of the disagreement about the Obama guidelines adding anything to the interpretation of the law, but if you truly believe they added nothing then you can't use it as an example of your misdefinition of totalitarian.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-17-2017 1:53 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2017 2:47 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 380 of 960 (802698)
03-19-2017 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 372 by Faith
03-19-2017 1:47 AM


Re: witchcraft among other attacks on Trump
Faith writes:
...the way Trump has been treated since he took office is absolutely unprecedented in American politics.
It might well be unprecedented. The absence of any honeymoon period is certainly unprecedented in my memory, which goes back to Nixon. But Trump has brought it all upon himself:
  • He accused the mainstream press of being "fake news" at his very first press conference.
  • He insulted the Australian prime minister.
  • He claimed his inauguration crowds were the largest ever then fought with the press about it.
  • He caused chaos around the world with an ill-thought out and conceived refugee travel ban.
  • He disparaged NATO.
  • He withdrew from trade agreements and is threatening free trade around the globe.
  • He removed LBGT protections.
  • He frightened non-citizens around the country, green card or not. Illegals are fleeing.
  • He's is in the process of taking away health insurance from millions.
  • He's rolling back environmental protections.
  • He tweeted unsupported allegations about wiretapping by his predecessor and refused to drop the claim.
And this is just what I can remember at the moment. Naturally any president acting so much like a noxious nut case is going to forfeit his honeymoon period.
By the way, what happened to that claim about the size of the inauguration crowds? No more mention of that. Trump feels safe in making one outrageous and untrue claim after another because he knows he can bury them just by making more outrageous and untrue claims.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Faith, posted 03-19-2017 1:47 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by jar, posted 03-19-2017 9:50 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 390 by NoNukes, posted 03-20-2017 1:22 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 396 of 960 (802853)
03-20-2017 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by New Cat's Eye
03-20-2017 2:47 PM


Re: Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
New Cat's Eye writes:
And I see both sides employing totalitarian thought and tactics.
That's because you don't know what totalitarian means.
I don't mind calling a spade a spade...
But you're calling a garden sprinkler a spade.
It's fairly common usage these days,...
That making laws or having an opinion is totalitarian is not "fairly common usage."
It's not the government that I'm calling totalitarian, it's the mindset of the people who are outraged. That's regardless of what the guidelines actually say.
I think you're confusing totalitarianism with making decisions and having laws (your Message 346). They're not totalitarian. They're how modern societies and every level of any human endeavor gets things done and makes things work.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2017 2:47 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2017 9:39 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 419 of 960 (802961)
03-22-2017 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by New Cat's Eye
03-22-2017 9:39 AM


Re: Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
New Cat's Eye writes:
But I do know what totalitarian means, maybe "cheeky" is a good word for this.
You're struggling with vocabulary, but the real story here is that what you and Faith are doing is name-calling, and the name doesn't fit. This whole thread is just an excuse for calling the left names. What if someone calls the right anarchistic. Does calling the right an ugly name really help? Does it help improve mutual understanding? Does the discussion make better progress?
To use the dictionary's terms: I see people subordinating their individual selves to a centralized authoritarian and autocratic hierarchy to control personal aspects of their lives.
And others don't. Just because there are different philosophies of government doesn't mean they exist at the extremes of anarchy and despotism.
They're looking to the federal government to help them figure out which bathrooms people should use, for crying out loud.
To whom other than government (not necessarily the federal government, but of course ultimately the federal government) should little girls being directed to the men's bathroom look (or vice versa)?
Title IX is great. It's being outraged because you cannot rely on the feds for guidance on things like which bathroom choices people should make that I think is far enough to call totalitarian - even if technically the usage of the word is not strictly correct.
You're like a broken record. So others could say the right is anarchical because they want us to live in a world where who has the might is right, making this a fair use of the word, even though technically the usage is absurd.
I'd prefer free individuals interacting over an authority dictating behavior, not visa versa.
So would everybody, but to expect it is naive, to require it anarchic.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2017 9:39 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2017 2:25 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 420 of 960 (802963)
03-22-2017 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 418 by New Cat's Eye
03-22-2017 11:40 AM


Re: Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
New Cat's Eye writes:
Too, only one state passed a law restricting bathroom use *before the guidance was issued (abe for pedantry).
And a number more in the legislative pipeline, as has been mentioned before. Now that Trump has rescinded the Obama guidelines, these states are free to resume formulating legislation that tells people what bathrooms they can use, all of it unfriendly to LGBT's.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2017 11:40 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2017 2:32 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 423 of 960 (802989)
03-22-2017 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 421 by New Cat's Eye
03-22-2017 2:25 PM


Re: Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
New Cat's Eye writes:
I'd say that you guys are the ones struggling with the vocabulary. You're more hung up on my word choice than what I'm trying to say.
You're the one who's determined about a word choice. By your own admission it is hyperbolic and doesn't fit, but you continue anyway. There's no other conclusion to reach but that you just like name calling, just like our current president who is doing us all so proud.
Then don't participate?
You're getting trollish again, and I'm beginning to wonder if you're serious. You've admitted that you do this.
I would be asking why the person thought the Right was anarchistic, what they were seeing that made them think that, how they thought that fit, what the problem is and what they wanted to do about it, etc.
Why care what particular name was called? Especially if the name doesn't fit.
We've already been through yours and Faith's reasons several times, so we're already way past that, yet you persist anyway. There seems no reason or justification other than that you just like calling people names.
To whom other than government (not necessarily the federal government, but of course ultimately the federal government) should little girls being directed to the men's bathroom look (or vice versa)?
Huh? You think that a little girl should ask the federal government if she's directed to the men's bathroom? I'm sorry, that's confusing. What are you asking?
I'm not sure I understand, but I think my answer would be that she should look to her parents.
Are you playing dumb? Here, let me try again. You said:
New Cat's Eye in Message 414 writes:
They're looking to the federal government to help them figure out which bathrooms people should use, for crying out loud.
So she thinks she should use the girls room. Her parents think she should use the girls room. But the school administration thinks she should use the boys room. The parents and school administration talk. They reach an impasse. So to whom other than government should the little girl (in the person of her parents bringing suit on her behalf) look?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2017 2:25 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 424 of 960 (802991)
03-22-2017 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by New Cat's Eye
03-22-2017 2:32 PM


Re: Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
New Cat's Eye writes:
New Cat's Eye writes:
Too, only one state passed a law restricting bathroom use *before the guidance was issued (abe for pedantry).
And a number more in the legislative pipeline, as has been mentioned before.
Before the guidelines? How many?
More than 10 had plans for legislation or legislation already in the pipeline as I recall, don't remember exactly how many. This Atlantic article says that "11 states sued the Obama administration over its guidance on Title IX." This NPR article says, "State legislatures in New Hampshire, Colorado and Texas, among other states, have also considered bills that would restrict access to restrooms for transgender people," which isn't specific as to number. I can't find the original article I remember reading months ago now.
Oh, wait, here you go: "BATHROOM BILL" LEGISLATIVE TRACKING:
quote:
Legislators in 16 states - Alabama, Arkansas, Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, New York, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, Washington and Wyoming - have introduced legislation that would restrict access to multiuser restrooms, locker rooms, and other sex-segregated facilities on the basis of a definition of sex or gender consistent with sex assigned at birth or biological sex. Legislation in 13 states is pending (as of 3/20/17). Legislation introduced in South Dakota,Virginia and Wyoming failed to pass.
Now that Trump has rescinded the Obama guidelines, these states are free to resume formulating legislation that tells people what bathrooms they can use,
That wasn't true when you acknowledged Message 293 and it isn't true now.
Turns out it was true then and it's true now. How about that.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2017 2:32 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-27-2017 11:00 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 440 of 960 (803214)
03-27-2017 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 435 by New Cat's Eye
03-27-2017 11:00 AM


Re: Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
New Cat's Eye writes:
Well, I mean, it is in the thread title.
...
Wasn't this thread a bit of a joke to begin with?
...
Once we get back on track, I'll try again to show you what I see is the totalitarian nature of this type of approach to government.
If calling the left names is "a bit of a joke," why are you taking it seriously by defending it?
So you have a child with a penis who thinks they're a girl and wants to use the girls' bathroom but the school doesn't want them to. That should be the school administration's decision. If there's really a discrimination case to be had then it should end at the individual state, imho.
Laws at the state level are not totalitarian while laws at the federal level are? This seems a bit inconsistent.
So, the claim that the guidelines were in response to multiple states passing laws is false.
The claim was that multiple states had bills in the pipeline, and that is true.
We can't be talking about the same thing. What in the guidelines prevents a legislator from formulating and proposing a bill?
That the public schools may risk federal funding may make them not want to, is that what you're talking about?
The Obama guidelines slowed or halted many of the state-level bills limiting LGBT bathroom rights because they would have conflicted with Title IX. It isn't uncommon for Title IX disputes to end up in court - one recently reached the Supreme Court. Risking loss of federal funding is not taken lightly. It seems unlikely that any state would pass legislation risking all its public schools losing federal funding.
The typical lefty response to leaving it at the state is that there could be states that decide to do things differently. Like, there isn't enough total control of a centralized governing body to rule everyone and make sure we're all doing the same things... hmm.
How is state government not a "centralized governing body"? I'm guessing that what you're really trying to express is a preference for laws as close to local level as possible. That's fine, and certainly there are going to be valid arguments concerning the right level for each legal issue, but that doesn't make the highest levels of government totalitarian, and it certainly doesn't make an opinion about LGBT rights totalitarian.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-27-2017 11:00 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 443 by NoNukes, posted 03-27-2017 2:20 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 444 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-27-2017 2:45 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 448 of 960 (803229)
03-27-2017 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by New Cat's Eye
03-27-2017 2:45 PM


Re: Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
New Cat's Eye writes:
First you say I'm trolling, now you say I'm taking it seriously. How about you just respond to what I write and forget how I'm taking it?
I did respond to what you wrote. I pointed out how it was contradictory, first saying that the thread title is "a bit of a joke," then saying you were going to show how it was actually true. Which is it?
The left likes to go to the feds because then you can control all the states. That's even more totalitarian.
When dealing with civil rights, that's the federal level.
I responded to a claim that explicitly said "passing" and you replied to that response. If you changed it, that's a different claim.
The word "passing" doesn't appear in any of my posts in this thread, and what I recall originally saying was that there were bills in the pipeline that would resume now that the guidelines have been rescinded. Let's see, ah yes, Message 229:
me in Message 229 writes:
Uh, yes they did. A number of states were considering legislation that would have restricted LGBT bathroom access.
...
This means that that state legislation I just mentioned can go back into the pipeline.
Are you sure you're not trolling?
Legislators could still follow them too. Now, they may think they don't have to because they were rescinded; is that all you were trying to say?
I think I pretty much said what I meant. There were LGBT bathroom use laws in the pipeline that were put on hold after Obama issued the guidelines, and now they can reenter the legislative pipeline. Beyond Title IX and the Obama guidelines there are civil rights issues.
In related news the AP reports that North Carolina will lose around $4 billion over the next 10 years due to their bathroom bill (North Carolina’s bathroom bill cost the state almost $4 billion, new analysis finds).
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-27-2017 2:45 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-28-2017 3:32 PM Percy has replied

  
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