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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
The point of its being a wedding cake was that even if they were having a civil union and not a wedding all the terminology that was used referred to weddings, and I believe that is how it was presented to the bakery too. This is so confused that it is probably not worth attempting to correct, but I will give it a try. Marriage is a civil union that is regulated by state law in ways that cannot conflict with the constitution. A wedding is a ceremony during which marriage vows, which do have legal effect are exchanged, but which also includes a bunch of rituals and celebration. Neither of those things involves the Bible in any way. Your religion may indeed have very strong things to say about marriage. But those things are beside the point of what those couples are doing. They just want a cake memorializing their choice to become a unit under the laws of whatever state they live in. Period. That's all the cake is for. They don't really want the sanction that you want to deny them. Viewed that way, what you want to do is reinterpret their ceremony under your view so that you can refuse to make a cake. That's idiotic. To demonstrate the fact that it is idiotic, we can note that even if the called the cake a civil ceremony cake, you still would not make it regardless of the fact that such a title would complete divorce it from whatever it is you want to call marriage. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I answered that from the bakery's point of view it was presented as a wedding and the whole argument has been about a wedding. So you would have no problem baking a cake for that civil union ceremony? A wedding under state law is, in fact a type of civil union recognized by the state. I don't see any problem with my argument. It is you and not the participants who insist that folks are performing a Biblical ritual which you must actively resist. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Am I able to demand a service that Jews or Hindus don't provide because of their religious beliefs? The answer is no because they don't provide pork or beef to anyone. They're therefore only guilty of total discrimination not partial. In what way is this discrimination at all. How is what you describe different from a pizza parlor deciding not to serve gyro sandwiches? There is one other important distinction I would make. A Christian bakery appears to be a bakery run by Christians rather than a bakery that caters to Christians, so the issue is not one of choice of cuisine but a choice of whom to serve. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I'm not and never have been talking about what the customers think they are doing, It is not a matter of thinking. The customers know exactly what they are doing. They are following state and national law. You are recasting what they are doing based on your own beliefs, prejudices, or whatever into something you can whine about. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Tangle quoted a gay activist in the UK who had been against a Christian bakery in a similar situation to those we are talking about here, and has since changed his mind on the ground that the bakers should have freedom of conscience That's fine. He is entitled to his opinion. But he is not entitled to require other folks to suffer the indignities he himself was not willing to suffer. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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No, of course not, far far better that a Christian bakery suffer the indignities and even be put out of business. You are right. Why do we make white bakeries serve niggers? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
My interest in these arguments isn't in their rights and wrongs as individual cases but that we are becoming very intolerant of diversity and whether this intollerance is a good or bad thing.
\Perhaps, but you definition of intolerance appears to include tolerance for intolerance, which causes the conundrum you are expressing here. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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A custom made wedding cake seems to me to be an artistic creation... a form of expression, or a form of speech and as such it should be protected under the right to free speech. More specifically, no one should be forced to use their speech to support a position they don't agree with. I can imagine a situation where a cake sculptor, who accepted commissions or contracts for specialty cakes, or even specialty cake figurines could refuse to make a cake; relying on the thirteenth amendment for support. But not a bakery shop that offers goods for sale out of a store front and that routinely makes wedding cakes for all comers. I think a wedding photographer, soloist, or organ player would present a much closer question. And I would be more sympathetic to a bake shop that did everything except customize the cake for gayness. But for a bakery that simply turned down customers because the otherwise routinely garish wedding cake was going to be used by a gay couple? I have no sympathy for their position whatsoever. Edited by NoNukes, : wrote 2nd amendment when I meant 13th. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
You replied to two Faith messages in a reply to a single PaulK message. I don't suppose there is an easy way to fix that.
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Nobody is a bigot in their own head.
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
True, and you are one big fat bigot. I do appear to lack tolerance for intolerance. Perhaps I am bigoted in that way... I'm not perfect. I do have impulses that I have to fight. Unlikely you, I don't believe Jesus wants me to be a bigot. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
You are a bigot, you are intolerant of decent people obeying God, you put yourself above perfectly decent people, like so many other leftists, call people names who do not deserve it. Damn, a message full of intolerance calling me names, all the while complaining about name calling. You are a piece of work. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Faith writes: Christians can't serve a gay wedding but you can have anything else you want." I don't think we can spot Faith her territory here. Some Christians react in this way, but not all. For example, some pastors perform gay weddings, some churches have gay pastors. There is nothing inherently Christian about the position Faith takes here, just as there is nothing inherently German in holocaust denial. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Faith typically follows Roman Catholic teaching 100%. This a pretty strange thing to say. Certainly there are large areas of overlap between Catholic teaching and Protestant doctrine, but just as clearly there are departures, many of which have been the subject of discussion here. Faith is pretty much hardcore fundy Protestant.
She only attacks Catholics as a thinly veiled scheme to make it sound like her type of Christianity (Roman Christian or at least Orthodox) is one that is divorced from past persecutions. (she ignored Protestant atrocities and claims that was secular government's fault when asked) I don't think it is a scheme at all. I think her hatred for Catholicism is completely sincere. Her hatred is classic fundy Protestant doctrine. She does indeed ignore Protestant atrocities in new threads even after having acknowledged them in other threads, but that's a separate issue. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
hat sounds like a reasonable solution to the writing problem. Unfortunately I don't know what the comparable solution to the wedding cake problem might be: bag up all the ingredients to make such a cake and provide written instructions? It is fairly obvious what the equivalent solution would be. Just make the cake without making it gay specific. The problem is that you would not accept that solution. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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