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Author Topic:   Brexit - Should they stay or should they go?
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1214
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 196 of 210 (793176)
10-23-2016 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Tangle
10-20-2016 1:40 PM


Re: Tribalism
That's not strictly true, it's more complicated and subtle than that.

It is the case that EU law overrides national law - in the UK this is enshrined in the European Communities Act. When this question was raised in the House of Lords, Law Lord Robert Goff argued in his judgement that it is:

quote:
(..)the duty of a United Kingdom court when delivering final judgment, to override any rule of national law found to be in conflict with any directly enforceable rule of Community law.

Which is perfectly in line with the ECJ's interpretation of EU law. The UK Parliament is perfectly within its rights to overrule EU law if it wishes, but it must do so explicitly, and would of course be required to leave the EU.


This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 197 of 210 (793190)
10-23-2016 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by caffeine
10-23-2016 6:19 AM


Re: Tribalism
caffeine writes:

You said the European Commission can override national governments.


You're making more of a distinction between the Commission and the Parliament than I am. Personally, I don't care whether it's the left hand or the right hand that's doing the oppressing.

caffeine writes:

All law requires the consent of the democratically-elected Parliament.

Most law requires the consent of the democratically-elected Parliament and a supermajority of member-state governments.

Some law requires the consent of the democratically-elected Parliament and 100% of the member-state governments.


You left out this bit:
quote:
And the minority of member-state governments can be trampled on.

But only in "some" cases. You think that's okay then?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by caffeine, posted 10-23-2016 6:19 AM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by caffeine, posted 10-24-2016 12:43 PM ringo has responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1214
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 198 of 210 (793234)
10-24-2016 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by ringo
10-23-2016 2:31 PM


Re: Tribalism
You're making more of a distinction between the Commission and the Parliament than I am. Personally, I don't care whether it's the left hand or the right hand that's doing the oppressing.

I was making a distinction between the Commission and the law, because they're very different things. The commission and the Parliament are also very different things. If you're not making these distinctions then you're not talking about anything, you're just blathering meaninglessly (much like the majority of the debate on Brexit.

And the minority of member-state governments can be trampled on.

But only in "some" cases. You think that's okay then?

Its a very odd way to look at things. I thought you were supporting Britain's exit from the EU, but it seems not, because almost half of voters wanted to remain - we can't trample on them, can we?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by ringo, posted 10-23-2016 2:31 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by ringo, posted 10-24-2016 1:23 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 199 of 210 (793236)
10-24-2016 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by caffeine
10-24-2016 12:43 PM


Re: Tribalism
caffeine writes:

I thought you were supporting Britain's exit from the EU, but it seems not, because almost half of voters wanted to remain - we can't trample on them, can we?


I have always thought that the EU was a bad idea and I think the voters made the right decision - democracy over economics, as I have said before.

Democracy does follow the will of the majority but it is the duty of the majority not to trample on minorities. Those who voted for Brexit are not trampling on the rights of those who voted against it. They're choosing local concerns over international concerns. We have similar situations here in Canada all the time with our federal system.

Federations are always in danger of secession and/or collapse. Czechoslovakia came apart. Yugoslavia came apart. The Soviet Union came apart. The USA fought a civil war and narrowly avoided coming apart. There's no reason to think the Holy EU Empire will be any different.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


(2)
Message 200 of 210 (793257)
10-24-2016 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Diomedes
10-20-2016 2:48 PM


Re: Recession, inflation, and (no shock) quantitative easing schemes happening as we type
Diomedes writes:

Everybody is aware of that.

Not in the US of A. The Republican line is that immigrants are a net burden on social systems.

2) The corporate big wigs who have been systematically destroying the middle class of this country to line their own pockets have been using rhetoric to divert attention away from their scheme. And they do so by blaming the immigrants, who are 'stealing American jobs'. Because the Mexican family picking fruit in the field took your manufacturing job away and moved it to China.

I grew up in a rural area where migrant workers are common. Whenever I hear people claiming that immigrants are taking our jobs all I want to do is ask them how they lost their job hoeing beets or tasseling corn. It is pretty preposterous. It's not as if Java coders are flooding over the southern border.


This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9324
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 201 of 210 (793313)
10-25-2016 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by ringo
10-24-2016 1:23 PM


Re: Tribalism
Democracy does follow the will of the majority but it is the duty of the majority not to trample on minorities. Those who voted for Brexit are not trampling on the rights of those who voted against it.

Perhaps that is semantically true, but this is a situation in which it is impossible for both sides to get what they want. The minority in this case is a substantial portion of the population. Just short of fifty percent. If trampling is the wrong word, then certainly "giving short shrift to" would not be out of place.

I'd also add that just having a rationale does not make a decision rational.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by ringo, posted 10-24-2016 1:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Taq, posted 10-25-2016 4:57 PM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 203 by ringo, posted 10-26-2016 3:29 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 202 of 210 (793323)
10-25-2016 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by NoNukes
10-25-2016 2:49 PM


Re: Tribalism
NoNukes writes:

Perhaps that is semantically true, but this is a situation in which it is impossible for both sides to get what they want. The minority in this case is a substantial portion of the population. Just short of fifty percent. If trampling is the wrong word, then certainly "giving short shrift to" would not be out of place.

At what point do you accept a majority win as a majority win? 55%? 51%? What rationale are you using?

I am sure Al Gore would like to know the answer to that question.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by NoNukes, posted 10-25-2016 2:49 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 203 of 210 (793363)
10-26-2016 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by NoNukes
10-25-2016 2:49 PM


Re: Tribalism
NoNukes writes:

... this is a situation in which it is impossible for both sides to get what they want.


How is that different from any other situation? There would be no point to having a vote if everybody got what they wanted.

Edited by ringo, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by NoNukes, posted 10-25-2016 2:49 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 568
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 204 of 210 (802202)
03-13-2017 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Diomedes
06-24-2016 8:47 AM


Scottish PM calls for new referendum
Nicola Sturgeon, the PM of Scotland is calling for a new referendum on Scottish independence.

http://www.bbc.com/...uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39255181

quote:
Ms Sturgeon said she wanted a vote to be held between the autumn of 2018 and the spring of the following year.
The Scottish first minister said the move was needed to protect Scottish interests in the wake of the UK voting to leave the EU.
She said she would ask the Scottish Parliament next week to request a Section 30 order from Westminster.

I think all the dialog around a potential 'hard Brexit' are likely driving this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Diomedes, posted 06-24-2016 8:47 AM Diomedes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Tangle, posted 03-13-2017 11:23 AM Diomedes has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4408
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 205 of 210 (802204)
03-13-2017 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Diomedes
03-13-2017 10:39 AM


Re: Scottish PM calls for new referendum
Diomedes writes:

I think all the dialog around a potential 'hard Brexit' are likely driving this.

Nope, her political oportunism is driving it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Diomedes, posted 03-13-2017 10:39 AM Diomedes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Diomedes, posted 03-13-2017 1:36 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 207 by Heathen, posted 03-14-2017 9:22 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 568
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 206 of 210 (802215)
03-13-2017 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Tangle
03-13-2017 11:23 AM


Re: Scottish PM calls for new referendum
Nope, her political oportunism is driving it.

Naturally. She is a politician after-all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Tangle, posted 03-13-2017 11:23 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 1012
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


(1)
Message 207 of 210 (802266)
03-14-2017 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Tangle
03-13-2017 11:23 AM


Re: Scottish PM calls for new referendum
quote:
‘Divisive’ referendum ‘will cause huge economic uncertainty’ says woman enacting divisive referendum causing huge economic uncertainty

http://newsthump.com/...um-causing-huge-economic-uncertainty


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Tangle, posted 03-13-2017 11:23 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Diomedes, posted 03-14-2017 9:45 AM Heathen has not yet responded
 Message 210 by Diomedes, posted 03-20-2017 10:41 AM Heathen has not yet responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 568
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 208 of 210 (802268)
03-14-2017 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Heathen
03-14-2017 9:22 AM


Re: Scottish PM calls for new referendum
Main question now is what Theresa May will do.

Ultimately, she has to approve another referendum. She could technically say 'no' but being brusque about it may not go over well with the Scottish people.

If she says 'yes', she may push for a timeframe that would have the independence vote occur after all the machinations from Brexit are completed. Will be curious to see how that will play out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Heathen, posted 03-14-2017 9:22 AM Heathen has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Tangle, posted 03-14-2017 9:58 AM Diomedes has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4408
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 209 of 210 (802269)
03-14-2017 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Diomedes
03-14-2017 9:45 AM


Re: Scottish PM calls for new referendum
Diomedes writes:

Main question now is what Theresa May will do.
Ultimately, she has to approve another referendum. She could technically say 'no' but being brusque about it may not go over well with the Scottish people.

She could quite fairly ask for evidence that the people support the idea of another referendum.

If she says 'yes', she may push for a timeframe that would have the independence vote occur after all the machinations from Brexit are completed. Will be curious to see how that will play out.

There's no way she'll accept a referendum until after the Brexit deal - if then. The only case they have - if any - is that the Scots voted to stay in, and they can't know whether they want to stay until they've seen the final deal.

And no one actually knows when the final deal is going to be signed. Rumour has it that the majority of the next 2 yeras will be spent trying to work out how the UK can be granted an extension.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Diomedes, posted 03-14-2017 9:45 AM Diomedes has not yet responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 568
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 210 of 210 (802799)
03-20-2017 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Heathen
03-14-2017 9:22 AM


Article 50 to be triggered on March 29th
Theresa May has made it official. Article 50 will be triggered on March 29th.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39325561

And here come the political wranglings.


This message is a reply to:
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