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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 526 of 1484 (802879)
03-21-2017 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 525 by herebedragons
03-21-2017 9:09 AM


Cakes and speech
The big problem with this argument is that pretty much nobody takes the cake as an expression of approval of the wedding. The same applies to the flowers and the photographs. People may well say "what a beautiful cake" but they won't go on to impute opinions to the bakers.
Any analogy to a speech in favour of gay marriage is therefore extremely weak. In the case of the speech the content is direct advocacy, and may be taken to represent the speakers views. In the case of the cake in so far as their is any content it is not at all likely to be taken as reflecting the views of the baker rather than the person commissioning the cake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by herebedragons, posted 03-21-2017 9:09 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 527 of 1484 (802881)
03-21-2017 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 525 by herebedragons
03-21-2017 9:09 AM


Re: Tim Allen, the latest victim of totalitarian PC
I agree that too big a deal is being made by both sides over the cake, but not over the principles involved. I agree that artistic efforts should not be coerced, but there will still be issues at the boundaries. The baker who bakes his own cakes can probably claim artistic privilege regarding any special requests or the message, but should the grocery store employee with a pre-made cake be coerced to write, "Best of luck in your marriage Chuck and Dave"? There seems a great deal of ambiguity and uncertainty about where to draw the line.
But though I'm not trying to slice the details as finely as that, there still seem boundary issues, and I think there will always be boundary issues. To my mind it's not right for a public business to deny service on the basis of race, color, creed or sexual preferences. Not selling a cake to a gay couple planning to get married is wrong, but not baking a custom cake starts falling into the realm of artistic privilege to me. If the requested cake would look like any other wedding cake, denying service seems wrong. But if the request is to put, say, two figures of the same sex at the top, then I'd say that artistic privilege includes the right to refuse making such an expression. I'll bet in many parts of the country that getting a reputation for baking gay cakes would be bad for business.
We'll never find the one right place to draw the line. Someone's rights or beliefs will always be infringed to some degree, and if danders get high enough then presidents, courts and legislatures will decide where to put the line.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by herebedragons, posted 03-21-2017 9:09 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 528 of 1484 (802882)
03-21-2017 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 525 by herebedragons
03-21-2017 9:09 AM


Re: Tim Allen, the latest victim of totalitarian PC
A custom made wedding cake seems to me to be an artistic creation... a form of expression, or a form of speech and as such it should be protected under the right to free speech. More specifically, no one should be forced to use their speech to support a position they don't agree with.
I can imagine a situation where a cake sculptor, who accepted commissions or contracts for specialty cakes, or even specialty cake figurines could refuse to make a cake; relying on the thirteenth amendment for support. But not a bakery shop that offers goods for sale out of a store front and that routinely makes wedding cakes for all comers.
I think a wedding photographer, soloist, or organ player would present a much closer question. And I would be more sympathetic to a bake shop that did everything except customize the cake for gayness. But for a bakery that simply turned down customers because the otherwise routinely garish wedding cake was going to be used by a gay couple? I have no sympathy for their position whatsoever.
Edited by NoNukes, : wrote 2nd amendment when I meant 13th.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by herebedragons, posted 03-21-2017 9:09 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 529 of 1484 (802884)
03-21-2017 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 524 by Percy
03-21-2017 7:44 AM


Re: Tim Allen, the latest victim of totalitarian PC
You replied to two Faith messages in a reply to a single PaulK message. I don't suppose there is an easy way to fix that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 524 by Percy, posted 03-21-2017 7:44 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 540 by Percy, posted 03-21-2017 2:24 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 530 of 1484 (802885)
03-21-2017 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 522 by Tangle
03-21-2017 4:36 AM


Yes, they aren't bigots
But I'm also worried about the rights and feelings of those that refuse the services. There's no reason that I know of to suppose that these people are neo-nazis persecuting gays in their spare time. I suspect they're just ordinary citizens just going about their business as they see fit and according to their own beliefs. Suddenly they find themselves confronted with choosing between their livelyhoods and their beliefs.
Yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 522 by Tangle, posted 03-21-2017 4:36 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 531 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2017 11:28 AM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 531 of 1484 (802887)
03-21-2017 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 530 by Faith
03-21-2017 10:58 AM


Re: Yes, they aren't bigots
Nobody is a bigot in their own head.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 530 by Faith, posted 03-21-2017 10:58 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 534 by Faith, posted 03-21-2017 12:18 PM NoNukes has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 532 of 1484 (802888)
03-21-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 495 by Faith
03-20-2017 3:56 PM


Re: Bible definition of gay marriage
Faith writes:
It doesn't matter what the legal basis for punishing the bakery is, the point is refusing to serve a gay wedding is subject to punishment.
Robbing banks is also subject to punishment. The legal basis is important. Even if your religion and/or your conscience requires you to rob the rich to feed the poor, that doesn't supersede the legal basis. The law is in place to protect everybody's property and everybody's rights.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by Faith, posted 03-20-2017 3:56 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 533 of 1484 (802890)
03-21-2017 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 524 by Percy
03-21-2017 7:44 AM


Re: Tim Allen, the latest victim of totalitarian PC
It is NOT "a subset of the public" not being served, it's a PARTICULAR SERVICE that is refused, like refusing to write "Same Sex Marriage is a Great Thing" on a cake.
This adds to my confusion over which situation you're talking about: writing on a cake or selling a cake. I'm sympathetic about the particular message requested for a cake, but refusing to sell a cake is a denial of service.
No, both are denial of service and that is what this is all about, denial of service on the ground of religious conscience. Supplying a particular message on a cake is the same thing as supplying a wedding cake.
The issue of writing has not been part of this discussion on this thread, only the wedding cake itself. The writing came up when tangle posted the Guardian opinion piece because that is what the case in the UK was about. The case here is only about supplying the wedding cake. I see the two situations as equivalent.
Once you open a bakery to the public you can't do that.
The law may say so, but if God says otherwise the Christians are going to obey God, which is the whole issue on this thread.
Or for another example, two gays are in a restaurant celebrating their first anniversary and request a mini-cake with a candle just like the mini-cake served at the next table for a heterosexual couple's first anniversary. They can't be refused because the restaurant is open to the public.
I'm sure that if the customer wanted a message on the cake celebrating Hitler Week or simply announced that's what it was for, it could indeed be refused. And although it seems to have been agreed here that this mini cake should not be refused for a gay wedding anniversary, again that depends on the conscience of the people providing it, as all these situations do.
It's also inconsistent, as has been pointed out before, to sell other bakery items to gays but not wedding cakes.
No, for the umpteenth time, there is no problem about selling anything to GAY PEOPLE, it's about supplying anything that to the baker's conscience legitimizes GAY MARRIAGE. In the main cases under discussion that happens to be a custom-made wedding cake, but it may not be the only case that is problematic because of legitimizing gay marriage in the baker's mind.
You quoted the Bible saying homosexuality is an abomination, so providing any service to gays should be abhorrent to Christians like yourself. It would be more consistent to object to having them in your bakery at all, though even more bigoted and discriminatory.
I uinderstand it is difficult to keep the context in mind in which something is said, but you are absolutely missing the point. This is not about any kind of sin, homosexual sin or heterosexual sin or anything else. It's about the ordinance of marriage and absolutely nothing else. The point of homosexual acts being sin is that it is one of the things that disqualify homosexuals from MARRIAGE. Again this is all about GAY MARRIAGE, nothing else. Adulterers, fornicators, active gays, and any other kind of sinners are not the problem, GAY MARRIAGE is the problem because it is now legalized and Christians cannot treat it as legitimate. PERIOD.
In an earlier post I'll have to track down I tried to spell out what I think are the main elements in the baker's dilemma. I arrived at two: the knowledge that the cake -- or anything else for that matter -- is for a gay wedding; and his/her sense of personal involvement in it or responsibility for it. So far I haven't had a reason to modify this attempt to define it.
So, again, it isn't about writing, and it isn't about gay people and it isn't about sinners as such etc etc etc; it's about providing anything at all known to be for a gay wedding because that would be treating gay marriage as legitimate in the mind of the baker. It's the conscience or mind of the baker that this all comes back to. It happens to be centered on the provision of a wedding cake in this case.
The baier's conscience is first of all something he/she experiences as being witnessed by God. It is also important not to give the impression of supporting gay marriage to people, but it is first and foremost obedience to God experienced as witnessed by God Himsefl.
Also, although the artistic involvement of the baker is sometimes an element, which HBD brought up, it's only because it emphasizes the sense of personal involvement that is part of the dilemma, but there are many ways that sense of involvement can occur without artistic expression being part of it. As I thought it through I could see how even supplying a cake off the shelf could be a problem if it is known to be for a gay wedding and the baker gets it off the shelf for the customer and boxes it up etc. If the customer takes it off the shelf and pays for it at the checkstand without saying anything about what it's to be used for, nobody's conscience is involved. The baker's conscience determines these things, which is why it is hard to pin down objective circumstances that would apply. It's personally determined, but trying to establish some kind of objective condition is what the two principles I came up with are intended to do: knowledge plus sense of personal involvement.
Totalitarianism is basically forcing people to conform to a particular belief system, political viewpoint, etc. Political Correctness is totalitarianism. Forcing a secular point of view on religious people is a form of totalitarianism.
You've defined totalitarianism correctly, but political correctness is not totalitarianism, and secular points of view are not being forced upon you.
Political Correctness is understood by everybody who has had to suffer it to be character assassination tyrannically imposed by the Left on anybody who doesn't share in its identity politics, which creates classes of people and pits them against each other. It's a form of Marxism which promotes class warfare. It invents the categories of Oppressor and Oppressed and provokes the designated Oppressed to hate the designated Oppressor. It's sheer totalitarian evil. The accusations of racist, bigot, homophobe and so on are pasted on people who DO NOT DESERVE ANY OF IT. I was happy to see Tangle agreeing that the UK bakers who were punished for "discrimination against gays" did not deserve it. They are not bigots. The term "bigot" is character assassination designed to shut people up, marginalize them, and in a totalitarian state even kill them. PC is evil totalitarian tyranny.
Everyone, including you, is still guaranteed the free practice of their religion as long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others.
If my religion prescribed subjugating people to my religion, blowing people up, taking over governments and ultimately ruling the world as Islam aims to do, I'd agree with the principle and argue that it has nothing to do with religious freedom in that case. But since all it does is prohibit the Christian from advocating something God forbids us to advocate, we're going to act on it because we are required to obey God when there is a conflict with human laws. So if the state will not grant us freedom of religion in these cases we'll take the punishment. Which is what I've said from the beginning of this thread.
Modulous introduced the concept of primacy to this thread. Where people of the various religions and no religion come together is the secular world, and while in the secular world you must follow secular norms and laws. The real problem for you isn't political correctness but that the secular norm you liked (gays are bad) has evolved to a norm you don't like (gays are just like us).
That's perniciously false. For the zillionth time this is not about SINFUL PEOPLE -- gays are sinners, adulterers are sinners, fornicators are sinners, liars are sinners, you are a sinner, and this HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY PARTICULAR CLASS OF "BAD" PEOPLE, as I keep trying to say. (After this discussion I might much prefer having a hundred gay couples to deal with than you. I won't give them a wedding cake but they can have Danish and coffee and argue about gay rights all they want. You can go fly a kite.)
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 524 by Percy, posted 03-21-2017 7:44 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 543 by Percy, posted 03-21-2017 3:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 534 of 1484 (802891)
03-21-2017 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 531 by NoNukes
03-21-2017 11:28 AM


Re: Yes, they aren't bigots
True, and you are one big fat bigot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 531 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2017 11:28 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 535 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2017 12:45 PM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 535 of 1484 (802892)
03-21-2017 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 534 by Faith
03-21-2017 12:18 PM


Re: Yes, they aren't bigots
True, and you are one big fat bigot.
I do appear to lack tolerance for intolerance. Perhaps I am bigoted in that way...
I'm not perfect. I do have impulses that I have to fight. Unlikely you, I don't believe Jesus wants me to be a bigot.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 534 by Faith, posted 03-21-2017 12:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 536 by Faith, posted 03-21-2017 12:56 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 536 of 1484 (802893)
03-21-2017 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 535 by NoNukes
03-21-2017 12:45 PM


Re: Yes, they aren't bigots
You are a bigot, you are intolerant of decent people obeying God, you put yourself above perfectly decent people, like so many other leftists, call people names who do not deserve it. You're soaked in PC and would happily condemn anybody for the slightest seeming misstep according to Marxist definitions. You have no ability to judge people fairly. Like others here I could name.
The UK bakers are not bigots, neither am I, neither are any of those who have been punished for obeying God instead of human law.
but you are. PC slingers are the real bigots. If anybody should be punished you should be, for slander and bigotry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 535 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2017 12:45 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 537 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2017 1:04 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 538 by ringo, posted 03-21-2017 1:17 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 537 of 1484 (802894)
03-21-2017 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 536 by Faith
03-21-2017 12:56 PM


Re: Yes, they aren't bigots
You are a bigot, you are intolerant of decent people obeying God, you put yourself above perfectly decent people, like so many other leftists, call people names who do not deserve it.
Damn, a message full of intolerance calling me names, all the while complaining about name calling.
You are a piece of work.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 536 by Faith, posted 03-21-2017 12:56 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 538 of 1484 (802896)
03-21-2017 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 536 by Faith
03-21-2017 12:56 PM


Re: Yes, they aren't bigots
Faith writes:
The UK bakers are not bigots, neither am I, neither are any of those who have been punished for obeying God instead of human law.
There are two kinds of people in the world: bigots who try to control their bigotry and bigots who deny their bigotry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 536 by Faith, posted 03-21-2017 12:56 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 539 by Diomedes, posted 03-21-2017 1:54 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(1)
Message 539 of 1484 (802898)
03-21-2017 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 538 by ringo
03-21-2017 1:17 PM


Re: Yes, they aren't bigots
There are two kinds of people in the world: bigots who try to control their bigotry and bigots who deny their bigotry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 538 by ringo, posted 03-21-2017 1:17 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 540 of 1484 (802901)
03-21-2017 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 529 by NoNukes
03-21-2017 10:58 AM


Re: Tim Allen, the latest victim of totalitarian PC
NoNukes writes:
You replied to two Faith messages in a reply to a single PaulK message. I don't suppose there is an easy way to fix that.
Sigh. Apologies to all. No, there's no easy way to fix it. In fact, it's well neigh impossible manually. The message posting code locks and updates several database tables simultaneously.
Fortunately it looks like Faith found the reply.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 529 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2017 10:58 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
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