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Author Topic:   The Totalitarian Leftist Tactics against the Right
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 421 of 960 (802974)
03-22-2017 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by Percy
03-22-2017 1:14 PM


Re: Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
You're struggling with vocabulary,
I'd say that you guys are the ones struggling with the vocabulary. You're more hung up on my word choice than what I'm trying to say.
but the real story here is that what you and Faith are doing is name-calling, and the name doesn't fit.
Shallow and pedantic
What if someone calls the right anarchistic. Does calling the right an ugly name really help? Does it help improve mutual understanding? Does the discussion make better progress?
Then don't participate?
I would be asking why the person thought the Right was anarchistic, what they were seeing that made them think that, how they thought that fit, what the problem is and what they wanted to do about it, etc.
Why care what particular name was called? Especially if the name doesn't fit.
To whom other than government (not necessarily the federal government, but of course ultimately the federal government) should little girls being directed to the men's bathroom look (or vice versa)?
Huh? You think that a little girl should ask the federal government if she's directed to the men's bathroom? I'm sorry, that's confusing. What are you asking?
I'm not sure I understand, but I think my answer would be that she should look to her parents.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Percy, posted 03-22-2017 1:14 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Percy, posted 03-22-2017 3:27 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 422 of 960 (802978)
03-22-2017 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by Percy
03-22-2017 1:22 PM


Re: Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
New Cat's Eye writes:
Too, only one state passed a law restricting bathroom use *before the guidance was issued (abe for pedantry).
And a number more in the legislative pipeline, as has been mentioned before.
Before the guidelines? How many?
Now that Trump has rescinded the Obama guidelines, these states are free to resume formulating legislation that tells people what bathrooms they can use,
That wasn't true when you acknowledged Message 293 and it isn't true now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by Percy, posted 03-22-2017 1:22 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 424 by Percy, posted 03-22-2017 3:48 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 423 of 960 (802989)
03-22-2017 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 421 by New Cat's Eye
03-22-2017 2:25 PM


Re: Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
New Cat's Eye writes:
I'd say that you guys are the ones struggling with the vocabulary. You're more hung up on my word choice than what I'm trying to say.
You're the one who's determined about a word choice. By your own admission it is hyperbolic and doesn't fit, but you continue anyway. There's no other conclusion to reach but that you just like name calling, just like our current president who is doing us all so proud.
Then don't participate?
You're getting trollish again, and I'm beginning to wonder if you're serious. You've admitted that you do this.
I would be asking why the person thought the Right was anarchistic, what they were seeing that made them think that, how they thought that fit, what the problem is and what they wanted to do about it, etc.
Why care what particular name was called? Especially if the name doesn't fit.
We've already been through yours and Faith's reasons several times, so we're already way past that, yet you persist anyway. There seems no reason or justification other than that you just like calling people names.
To whom other than government (not necessarily the federal government, but of course ultimately the federal government) should little girls being directed to the men's bathroom look (or vice versa)?
Huh? You think that a little girl should ask the federal government if she's directed to the men's bathroom? I'm sorry, that's confusing. What are you asking?
I'm not sure I understand, but I think my answer would be that she should look to her parents.
Are you playing dumb? Here, let me try again. You said:
New Cat's Eye in Message 414 writes:
They're looking to the federal government to help them figure out which bathrooms people should use, for crying out loud.
So she thinks she should use the girls room. Her parents think she should use the girls room. But the school administration thinks she should use the boys room. The parents and school administration talk. They reach an impasse. So to whom other than government should the little girl (in the person of her parents bringing suit on her behalf) look?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2017 2:25 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 424 of 960 (802991)
03-22-2017 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by New Cat's Eye
03-22-2017 2:32 PM


Re: Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
New Cat's Eye writes:
New Cat's Eye writes:
Too, only one state passed a law restricting bathroom use *before the guidance was issued (abe for pedantry).
And a number more in the legislative pipeline, as has been mentioned before.
Before the guidelines? How many?
More than 10 had plans for legislation or legislation already in the pipeline as I recall, don't remember exactly how many. This Atlantic article says that "11 states sued the Obama administration over its guidance on Title IX." This NPR article says, "State legislatures in New Hampshire, Colorado and Texas, among other states, have also considered bills that would restrict access to restrooms for transgender people," which isn't specific as to number. I can't find the original article I remember reading months ago now.
Oh, wait, here you go: "BATHROOM BILL" LEGISLATIVE TRACKING:
quote:
Legislators in 16 states - Alabama, Arkansas, Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, New York, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, Washington and Wyoming - have introduced legislation that would restrict access to multiuser restrooms, locker rooms, and other sex-segregated facilities on the basis of a definition of sex or gender consistent with sex assigned at birth or biological sex. Legislation in 13 states is pending (as of 3/20/17). Legislation introduced in South Dakota,Virginia and Wyoming failed to pass.
Now that Trump has rescinded the Obama guidelines, these states are free to resume formulating legislation that tells people what bathrooms they can use,
That wasn't true when you acknowledged Message 293 and it isn't true now.
Turns out it was true then and it's true now. How about that.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2017 2:32 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-27-2017 11:00 AM Percy has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 425 of 960 (802993)
03-22-2017 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by New Cat's Eye
03-22-2017 9:39 AM


Re: Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
It's not federal laws in general that I have a problem with. Title IX is great
Do you object to people clarifying what Title IX means? Do you object when that clarification is abandoned? Do you find it objectionable when people find it objectionable when that clarity is lost?
It's being outraged because you cannot rely on the feds for guidance on things like which bathroom choices people should make that I think is far enough to call totalitarian - even if technically the usage of the word is not strictly correct.
The guidelines do not give guidance on which bathroom choices people should make.
quote:
Schools across the country strive
to create and sustain inclusive, supportive, safe, and nondiscriminatory
communities for all students.
In recent years, we have received an increasing number
of questions from parents, teachers, principals, and school superintendents about civil rights protections for transgender
students. Title IX of the Education Amendments
of 1972 (Title IX) and its implementing regulations
prohibit sex discrimination in educational programs and activities operated by recipients of Federal financial assistance.
This prohibition encompasses discrimination based
on a student’s gender identity, including discrimination based
on a student’s transgender status. This letter summarizes a
school’s Title IX obligations regarding transgender students and explains how the U.S. Department of Education (ED)
and the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) evaluate a
school’s compliance with these obligations.
ED and DOJ (the Departments) have determined that this letter
is significant guidance.
This guidance does not add requirements to applicable law,
but provides information and examples to inform
recipients about how the Departments evaluate whether covered entities
are complying with their legal obligations.
...
As a condition of receiving Federal funds, a school agrees
that it will not exclude, separate, deny benefits
to, or otherwise treat differently on
the basis of sex any person in its educational programs
or activities unless expressly authorized to do
so under Title IX or its implementing regulations.
The Departments treat a student’s gender identity
as the student’s sex for purposes of Title
IX and its implementing regulations. This means that a school must not treat a transgender student differently from the way
it treats other students of the same gender identity. The
Departments’ interpretation is consistent with
courts’ and other agencies’ interpretations of Federal laws prohibiting sex discrimination.
The guidance doesn't say anything about what bathroom you should use. It says that a trans-girl should be treated as a cis-girl under Title IX. This includes bathroom use:
quote:
A school may provide separate facilities on the basis of sex,
but must allow transgender students access to such facilities consistent with their gender identity. A school may not require transgender students to use facilities inconsistent with their gender identity
or to use individual-user facilities when other students are not required
to do so.
Stakeholders were asking for clarification from the relevant Federal Departments. Those departments issued a set of guidelines to clarify some specific points raised regarding he general nature of Title IX.
I'd prefer free individuals interacting over an authority dictating behavior, not visa versa.
Title IX is the only authoritative thing in effect which you say 'is great'. The guidelines merely state that the protections in Title IX should extend to transgender students. Individuals are still free and can still interact regardless of the guidelines which merely are intended to clarify Title IX:
quote:
No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance
By saying it should be construed to mean 'gender identity' rather than biologically determined sex (which isn't strictly a coherent thing anyway).
Why is being upset at those guidelines being abandoned totalitarian? They don't demand what bathrooms people should use anymore than Title IX does. Title IX doesn't say cis-girls must use bathrooms for cis-girls. It simply prohibits discrimination of girls. The guidelines just assert, in consistency with other decisions made by courts, that transgirls are to be regarded as girls when interpreting what Title IX is prohibiting.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2017 9:39 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 426 of 960 (803011)
03-22-2017 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 416 by New Cat's Eye
03-22-2017 10:54 AM


Re: Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
No, not at all. The first amendment prevents the federal government from violating a preexisting right. It limits the government rather than giving it more authority.
It doesn't identify people's characteristics and tell people how to behave. All it does is say what congress cannot do.
That's the opposite of these guidelines and the mentality of expecting the federal government to advise you on which bathrooms people should use.
If you have been living under a rock for the past few years I advise you to come out from under it and look up the facts on this great new thing we have called the internet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2017 10:54 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 427 of 960 (803018)
03-22-2017 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 416 by New Cat's Eye
03-22-2017 10:54 AM


Re: Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
That's the opposite of these guidelines and the mentality of expecting the federal government to advise you on which bathrooms people should use.
This a gross distortion of what the guidelines do. The guidelines tell state governments, and essentially nobody else, not to dictate what bathrooms they should use. Period. The sole penalty being a possible loss of Title IX funds. Do you take Title IX funds?
Under the guidelines, it was anticipated that folks would pick their own bathrooms and locker rooms rather than have the state do that.
Now, why do you make this gross mistake? It is because you want to misuse the term totalitarian. But how are the guidelines totalitarian, while the laws they are a reaction to are the height of freedom? Because you cannot draw a straight line; because you are literally defending the freedom to discriminate as some kind of right.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2017 10:54 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 428 of 960 (803023)
03-22-2017 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tangle
03-04-2017 12:10 PM


Perhaps these fake Christians just grit their teeth when they read JC talk about feeding the homeless, doing as you would be done by and eye of needle stuff.
The standard answer from the Christians in question is that those verses are for Jews only.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 03-04-2017 12:10 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 429 by Faith, posted 03-22-2017 10:46 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 429 of 960 (803026)
03-22-2017 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 428 by NoNukes
03-22-2017 9:43 PM


Just wondering what "fake Christians" you have in mind? I've never heard of any kind of Christians who say Jesus' teachings are for the Jews only, and all the Christians I've ever known are very zealous for doing good works.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by NoNukes, posted 03-22-2017 9:43 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 430 by NoNukes, posted 03-22-2017 11:21 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 430 of 960 (803027)
03-22-2017 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 429 by Faith
03-22-2017 10:46 PM


Just wondering what "fake Christians" you have in mind? I've never heard of any kind of Christians who say Jesus' teachings are for the Jews only, and all the Christians I've ever known are very zealous for doing good works.
That's a fair question. I don't know exactly what Tangle meant by "fake", but my comments addressed dispensationalists. I don't know where you stand on that issue, and I don't consider them necessarily to be "fake Christians. I do believe that dispensationalism is bad doctrine.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by Faith, posted 03-22-2017 10:46 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 431 by Tangle, posted 03-23-2017 3:55 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 431 of 960 (803035)
03-23-2017 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 430 by NoNukes
03-22-2017 11:21 PM


NoNuke writes:
I don't know exactly what Tangle meant by "fake", but my comments addressed dispensationalists.
Fake Christians are those that ignore Jesus's core values of loving thy neighbour and do as you would be done by etc in favour of their personal interpretations of their quote mined bible.
Faith is a fake Christian. It's not intentional - it's not fraud - she's just not the real thing, she's a corrupted version of a Christian with views that JC himself would have called an abomination, to use an oft quoted word.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by NoNukes, posted 03-22-2017 11:21 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 432 of 960 (803041)
03-23-2017 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by New Cat's Eye
03-22-2017 10:54 AM


Re: Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
NCE writes:
That's the opposite of these guidelines and the mentality of expecting the federal government to advise you on which bathrooms people should use.
A little clarity needed here. Which guidelines are you claiming advise you on which bathrooms people should use?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2017 10:54 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by Theodoric, posted 03-23-2017 3:40 PM jar has seen this message but not replied
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 433 of 960 (803076)
03-23-2017 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 432 by jar
03-23-2017 9:45 AM


Re: Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
Ahhh now that's the rub isn't it.
NCE makes all these claims of totalitarianism and as of yet has NO examples, but it is not beneath him to make shit up to reinforce the narrative he wants to play.
ConservaWorld at it finest and most basic.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by jar, posted 03-23-2017 9:45 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 434 of 960 (803080)
03-23-2017 4:15 PM


This coming from somebody who supports the Orthodox imperial church as God ordaineded
Faith's theology comes from the imperial church of post 325 A.D.
She complains of persecution ONLY before 313/325 then it is a Rome that is a God ordained institution.
Equal rights are evil to her so she can call them "Totalitarian"
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 435 of 960 (803205)
03-27-2017 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 424 by Percy
03-22-2017 3:48 PM


Re: Thread Misuses the Word "Totalitarian"
From Message 423:
You're the one who's determined about a word choice. By your own admission it is hyperbolic and doesn't fit, but you continue anyway.
Well, I mean, it is in the thread title.
You're getting trollish again, and I'm beginning to wonder if you're serious. You've admitted that you do this.
Wasn't this thread a bit of a joke to begin with?
To whom other than government (not necessarily the federal government, but of course ultimately the federal government) should little girls being directed to the men's bathroom look (or vice versa)?
Huh? You think that a little girl should ask the federal government if she's directed to the men's bathroom? I'm sorry, that's confusing. What are you asking?
I'm not sure I understand, but I think my answer would be that she should look to her parents.
Are you playing dumb? Here, let me try again. You said:
New Cat's Eye in Message 414 writes:
They're looking to the federal government to help them figure out which bathrooms people should use, for crying out loud.
So she thinks she should use the girls room. Her parents think she should use the girls room. But the school administration thinks she should use the boys room. The parents and school administration talk. They reach an impasse. So to whom other than government should the little girl (in the person of her parents bringing suit on her behalf) look?
So you have a child with a penis who thinks they're a girl and wants to use the girls' bathroom but the school doesn't want them to. That should be the school administration's decision. If there's really a discrimination case to be had then it should end at the individual state, imho.
From Message 424:
More than 10 had plans for legislation or legislation already in the pipeline as I recall, don't remember exactly how many. This Atlantic article says that "11 states sued the Obama administration over its guidance on Title IX."
Well that cannot be from before the guidelines... From your tracking link:
quote:
From 2013 to 2016, at least 24 states considered "bathroom bills," or legislation that would restrict access to multiuser restrooms, locker rooms, and other sex-segregated facilities on the basis of a definition of sex or gender consistent with sex assigned at birth or biological sex. North Carolina is the only state to enact this type of legislation.
So, the claim that the guidelines were in response to multiple states passing laws is false. The guidance, itself, even says that the feds were being approached with increasing questions from the schools and parents, as I've already quoted.
Now that Trump has rescinded the Obama guidelines, these states are free to resume formulating legislation that tells people what bathrooms they can use,
That wasn't true when you acknowledged Message 293 and it isn't true now.
Turns out it was true then and it's true now.
We can't be talking about the same thing. What in the guidelines prevents a legislator from formulating and proposing a bill?
That the public schools may risk federal funding may make them not want to, is that what you're talking about?
How about that.
That's spelled "howbow dah" now
Once we get back on track, I'll try again to show you what I see is the totalitarian nature of this type of approach to government.
The typical lefty response to leaving it at the state is that there could be states that decide to do things differently. Like, there isn't enough total control of a centralized governing body to rule everyone and make sure we're all doing the same things... hmm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by Percy, posted 03-22-2017 3:48 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by Percy, posted 03-27-2017 1:21 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 441 by Modulous, posted 03-27-2017 2:08 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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