Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity

Because wedding-related Judaic, Islamic and Buddhist businesses don't deny service to homosexual couples? Hmmm?--Percy

Maths for a start.If we assume that Wedding Cake makers are equally Muslim and Christian, there are still 70 times more Christians than Muslims. We'd need to see over 100 suits against Christians and none against Muslims before we'd be able to detect any noticeable bias. We've only seen a handful. So the sample size is way too small to expect to see Muslims appear.Also the assumption that Muslim new businesses are equally likely to start a bakery that serves wedding cakes is questionable.Then it might also be the case that Muslims are less likely to feel that selling a wedding cake for a same-sex marriages is haraam.So there's a bunch of reasons, where only the first is even needed to explain the evidence.

Their belief they are married doesn't implicate me in it, I am free not to believe it. And how would I know in most cases anyway? No, it has has nothing whatever to do with the people, nothing. The writing and the cake, both involve the baker in the event that legitimizes gay marriage. Nor be compelled to construct a symbol of marriage for a wedding that the baker regards as illegitimate.

If you review the context of what is being said here you should find that it started with somebody saying something about CHURCHES singling out gays. I said they do not, they are responding to gay provocations, such as the demand for gay marriage, and now its legalization. There is no particular singling out of gays, it's a response to their actions that contradict Christian doctrine. Preachers also preach against all the other sins, but at the moment adulterers aren't asking to be given some special status that legally elevates them to some other category or erases their adultery.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Given that "special status" is merely asking for the same the cake you or I could get, your words are easily seen through.

I honestly don't understand how anyone who calls himself a Christian and presumably knows the Bible, maybe even regards it as God's word (?} can think homosexual relationships are the equivalent of heterosexual relationship in any sense at all, how God's ordinance of marriage could possibly apply to two of the same sex who are not designed for the physical union of marriage, don't qualify in the slightest, whose "union" is called sin in the Bible -- a "Christian" who on top of that criticizes and maligns other Christians who point this out and refuse to do anything to support such violations of God's principles, calling us bigots, calling it a failure of love, and even imputing to Christ Himself such ungodly views. I don't know how far a Christian can go in such an anti-Christian belief and still be a Christian, saved by God's grace, I really wonder. What is God going to do with such Christians?If you really love homosexuals you should be telling them honestly what sin is and how it only earns us all an eternity in Hell, and encourage them to seek salvation. That's love, while justifying their sin as just a normal sexual variation is hate.We'll happily recommend a gorgeous tiered cake to celebrate the day of their salvation, which is in fact marriage to Christ. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

And I don't understand how anyone can think selling a cake for a gay wedding suggests the opinion that the baker thinks the wedding is a legitimate wedding in the eyes of God. So we still have work to do reach agreement. Still, we should keep trying, eh? Well, naturally. But if you single homosexuals out for particular attention its going to look like you 'Bible believing' Christians have some particular animus against homosexuals. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God - right?

Here is the key. This "ordinance of marriage" thing is not Biblical. Marriage is instead a state sanction union of folks. While it is the case that the state used to not sanction gay marriage, that is no longer the case.I don't have any problem with your insisting that when you get married you are following dictates of the Bible. Right or wrong, adding a religious component is your choice. What you don't get to do is insist that other folks do the same thing. Many of the folks in question would be happy to forgo your religious blessing. They just want a state sanction marriage.Does a wedding cake for a woman having her second marriage indicate that you sanction adultery?Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

All the business owners we are discussing and millions of others who agree with them, disagree with you about that. A Christian should realize that what God said about marriage in Genesis 2:24 applies to the whole human race, all the progeny of Adam and Eve who are there married according to God's word. Marriage laws across the world generally follow the basic pattern more or less anyway, because every culture and every human being still retains some memory of the true God. And a Christian ought to know this.; What we are talking about in this thread is the conscience of a Christian about God's law about marriage, not about any secular law or any individual's marriage. And nobody is stopping them. Some bakers might have a problem with it, I don't know. But remember please that we are not talking about personal sins, not adultery or homosexual acts or any of it, the subject is respect for God's law of marriage. Gay marriage is a violation of the marriage ordinance itself. Adultery, although sin, does not challenge the marriage ordinance.

I've tried different ways on this thread to get across why making a wedding cake for a gay wedding puts the baker in the position of treating gay marriage as legitimate, and if none of it is convincing to you all that is left is pointing out that this is a matter of a Christian's conscience, it happens to be shared by a LOT of Christians, and a person's conscience is not subject to bartering. Agreement on that is not possible, so if we want both parties to be happy we have to go about it some other way. We happen to be talking about homosexuals here. But maybe even a hardened Leftist, Marxist feminist, evolutionist or anti-Christian political conservative could be reached. You never know. It's generally one person at a time, one step at a time.

Gay civil marriage is legally recognized in the United States - It is legally legitimate (even if it might be seen as religiously illegitimate). Providing a cake is not an endorsement of it being religiously legitimate.Moose

I'm sure you are right, but if they as uniformly unsuccessful at pointing out the Biblical support as you have been, their opinions are not of much value.

But it doesn't matter if it's "religiously legitimate" or something else, that's not the point. The point is that a Christian understands that God gave us marriage, God defines marriage, it applies to all human beings in all times, it's a Law, like the laws of the Ten Commandments except it's called a "Creation Ordinance." The only other Creation Ordinance I know of for sure is the requirement that women cover our heads in the worship service --, which derives from the fact that Adam was created first and then Eve created out of his body --which unfortunately is disobeyed by most churches these days. (In fact when a law or a creation ordinance is disobeyed there are repercussions -- if one is rejected others are more easily rejected and it may be that all these situations with gay marriage are one of the repercussions. There are lots of preachers out there admonishing the Church about various kinds of sins and disobedience in the churches, but nobody ever mentions the head covering disobedience. Except me in my blog, which of course hasn't had any effect that I know of. Now that I think of it I should probably do another post on it.}ANYWAY. Christians do understand that Genesis 2:24 is God's Creation Ordinance/Law of Marriage that defines marriage for all people in all times. It IS marriage, there are no other forms of it, just human deviations from it. ABE: We can't control the deviations, but we are bound to obey our understanding of God's creation and definition of marriage.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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If you review the context of what is being said here you should find that it started with somebody saying something about CHURCHES singling out gays.

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So it is about churches focussing on the idea that homosexuality is a sin, to the point where it is regarded as especially bad.

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I said they do not, they are responding to gay provocations, such as the demand for gay marriage, and now its legalization.

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So, asking to be treated fairly is "provocation". If you want to give the impression that those churches are full of bigots you could hardly do better.

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Preachers also preach against all the other sins, but at the moment adulterers aren't asking to be given some special status that legally elevates them to some other category or erases their adultery.

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By which you mean that they already have plenty of rights. Adulterous was decriminalised before homosexuality, divorcees are freely allowed to remarry in most Protestant churches despite the Biblical injunction to regard it as adultery. (And lustfully looking at women is hardly even criticised !). Adultery is hardly even regarded as a problem in public figures. At least those public figures that you approve of.Given that adultery is straightforwardly wrong without the religious factor that's pretty "special" by the low bar you've set up.

So we come back to the idea that you "Christians" should dictate the secular law. Not exactly Biblical, is it ?