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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 136 of 438 (800869)
03-01-2017 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Stile
03-01-2017 1:07 PM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:
And if "I like his tie" is your reason for voting for him.. then that's a conscious reason.
Is it? Or is it just the part of your reason that you're conscious of?
Stile writes:
And "rationalize" is different from "conscious decision."
It is. And most of what you call "conscious" reasoning is likely post facto rationalization.
Stile writes:
It is quite possible for science to prove that there is no unconscious component required in order to make a conscious decision.
Just as it's quite possible for science to prove that there is no toothpaste component required in order to run a basic combustible engine.
That's a dishonest analogy. We can all imagine an experiment to run a combustion engine without toothpaste. But is an experiment to run thought without unconscious inputs even possible? Isn't it in the same realm as running an experiment to find God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Stile, posted 03-01-2017 1:07 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Stile, posted 03-01-2017 2:39 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 138 of 438 (800880)
03-01-2017 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Stile
03-01-2017 2:39 PM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:
However, with consciousness... the science IS making current progress with much to test and attempt to understand.
And it seems to be going in the opposite direction from what you claim. The unconscious mind seems to have a lot more influence than we used to think.
Of course its possible that science will eventually disprove evolution and germ theory and the Big Bang....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Stile, posted 03-01-2017 2:39 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Stile, posted 03-02-2017 8:44 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 140 of 438 (800969)
03-02-2017 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Stile
03-02-2017 8:44 AM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:
I think conscious decisions are possible.
I also think most decisions are unconscious.
This seems to be exactly what the science is saying right now... and exactly where it is leading.
So, which part is opposite to the direction I'm claiming?
You said that FULLY conscious decisions are possible. Show us where science is leading in that direction.
On the other hand, we have science showing us that what we thought was conscious has a lot of unconscious influences:
Subliminal advertising. All advertising, for that matter. We don't decide fully consciously to buy the beer that promises us chicks in bikinis.
Blondes are more likely to be acquitted by juries too.
Polygraph. Your body betrays what your mind is really thinking.
Body language in general.
Can you decide fully consciously who you fall in love with?
Can you choose fully consciously to believe in Zeus?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Stile, posted 03-02-2017 8:44 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Stile, posted 03-02-2017 3:32 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 142 of 438 (801107)
03-03-2017 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Stile
03-02-2017 3:32 PM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:
I stopped using the FULLY because it is redundant and therefore unnecessary.
And I thought you dropped it because the position was untenable.
Stile writes:
"Choosing to do something and knowing exactly why you want to."
That's what I'm saying doesn't happen. As long as there are unconscious inputs, you can't claim to know "exactly" why you want something.
Stile writes:
This shift doesn't indicate that conscious decision are going to disappear completely.
I'm saying the opposite - that the UNconscious component isn't going to disappear completely.
Stile writes:
This idea by no means indicates that science will one day find that "FULLY land" areas do not exist...
Another bad analogy. Of course "fully land" areas DO NOT exist. They all have a water table. It's just that sometimes you're not conscious of it.
Stile writes:
The science accepts that "FULLY conscious choices" (aka "conscious motivations") exist...
Only if "fully" doesn't mean fully.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Stile, posted 03-02-2017 3:32 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Stile, posted 03-05-2017 10:18 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 144 of 438 (801351)
03-05-2017 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Stile
03-05-2017 10:18 AM


Re: What's the difference?
Stile writes:
If anyone has any comment or explanation for the following question, please feel free to respond: Can (anyone) explain how me trying to help others is different from Jesus trying to help others?
Riggamortis answered your question and I ran with the ball.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Stile, posted 03-05-2017 10:18 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 157 of 438 (803388)
03-29-2017 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Phat
03-28-2017 5:29 PM


Re: What's the difference?
Phat writes:
I'm talking about the Creator of all seen and unseen...the One whom you have no ability to correct or improve upon.
Why does the Creator of all seen and unseen have to be perfect? When Henry created the first Ford it was the only Ford seen and unseen but was it perfect?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 03-28-2017 5:29 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Phat, posted 03-30-2017 3:15 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 160 of 438 (803424)
03-30-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Phat
03-30-2017 3:15 AM


Re: What's the difference?
Phat writes:
well I suppose you could argue that the Creator does not *have* to be perfect, but the concept then becomes a creative imagination of your own mind....
Perfection itself is a product of the imagination. It doesn't exist in reality, does it?
Phat writes:
We like our deities to be larger than life. Perfection is, after all, a worthy goal and calling.
We also like our villains to be larger than life. What good is a hero without a villain to contrast him with? Which is why we have to make up a super-villain to match our super-hero. Which is how we get into the quagmire of who created what.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Phat, posted 03-30-2017 3:15 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 03-31-2017 4:01 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 164 of 438 (803521)
04-01-2017 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Phat
03-31-2017 4:01 PM


Re: What's the difference?
Phat writes:
Perhaps the question is whether perfection is a valid goal and ideal for us to strive towards...without fully understanding what it is.
I think striving toward "perfection" definitely is a valid goal. The problem is in defining what "perfection" is. Striving to be a faster runner is easy enough - but how do you strive to make "better" use of your time and money, for example? How do you determine what is "better"?
Phat writes:
Trying to do your best every day is one method.
Trusting that the Creator understands our shortcomings is another.
How does trusting the Creator help YOU overcome your shortcomings? You'd have to trust that YOUR understanding of your shortcomings was reliable, whether that understanding came from the Creator or from your own head. What if failure to understand the Creator IS one of your shortcomings?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 03-31-2017 4:01 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 181 of 438 (853298)
05-25-2019 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Phat
05-25-2019 9:06 AM


Re: Choose This Day Whom You Want In Authority
Phat writes:
... as long as I am allowed to be a religious moderator here at this forum I will frame the paradigm and status flow in context to my own belief and authority.
Isn't that a bit like putting the fox in charge of the henhouse?
Phat writes:
Critics may well say that the authors of John were redactors with an independent ulterior motive, but I will challenge that assertion even if it comes from reputed scholars. Reason being, they seek to discredit the inerrancy and authority of scripture.
Or maybe they seek the truth.
Phat writes:
... who gave you your flipping authority to freely squawk out your propaganda at this forum? Certainly not I.
So, Mr. Fox, you'll eat whomever you choose.
Phat writes:
And furthermore...to any others who wish to defend this right to reduce Faith & Belief to a relativistic position, fuck you too! I'll leave this forum in a heartbeat.
Bye.
Phat writes:
I don't need any shit from anyone here regarding the inerrancy and authority of scripture.
Well, you're going to get it, so you can either fasten your seatbelt or bail out.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Phat, posted 05-25-2019 9:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 182 of 438 (853299)
05-25-2019 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Phat
05-25-2019 9:18 AM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
Phat writes:
If our pagan liberal government ever allowed you people equal time with the genuine preachers, we would know that the end was near.
Your "liberal" government? Give your head a shake.
And yes, your government, whatever its orientation, is REQUIRED by your Constitution to allow equal time. Otherwise you'd be forced to be a Puritan and you'd go to the ducking stool for smiling on Sunday.
Phat writes:
At that point, I would be in favor of shutting all of us up publically...
Would this be a good time to invest in barbed wire?

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Phat, posted 05-25-2019 9:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 203 of 438 (853335)
05-26-2019 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Phat
05-25-2019 4:08 PM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
Phat writes:
Did it ever occur to you that there may be a reason that there is no evidence that God Himself allowed happening for precisely the reason of testing the human heart?
Worst copout ever. The leprechauns want you to have faith in them. Bigfoot wants you to have faith in him.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 05-25-2019 4:08 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 204 of 438 (853336)
05-26-2019 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Phat
05-25-2019 10:03 PM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
Phat writes:
We have no evidence that they suffer for eternity.
The evidence for eternal suffering comes from the same source as the evidence for Jesus. You're cherry-picking to patch together your made-up God.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Phat, posted 05-25-2019 10:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:09 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 211 of 438 (853344)
05-26-2019 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Phat
05-26-2019 3:09 PM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
You're cherry-picking to patch together your made-up God.
Ask the question of why it is important to me that you entertain the possibility? We can go down that rabbit trail if you want.
What does that have to do with what you quoted?

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 213 of 438 (853346)
05-26-2019 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Phat
05-26-2019 3:10 PM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
The leprechauns want you to have faith in them. Bigfoot wants you to have faith in him.
And yet they don't.
I say they do, with the same authority that you say God does. Why is it okay to make that argument for God but not for other myths?
Phat writes:
Why is God as I understand Him any different?
He isn't.
Edited by ringo, : Fixed quotes.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 217 of 438 (853351)
05-26-2019 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Phat
05-26-2019 3:41 PM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
Phat writes:
We disagree. I say He is. You say he isn't.
Is or isn't what?
I say - specifically - that your God being invisible because He wants us to have faith in Him is no different from leprechauns being invisible because they want us to have faith in them. If you think there is a difference, you have to tell us what it is.
Phat writes:
Are you trying to convince me that He isn't?
Of course not. I'm pointing out to anybody else who is interested why your beliefs make no sense.
Phat writes:
I am attempting to show you the possibility that He is.
Have I ever denied the "possibility" of your God?
Phat writes:
Should I simply give up on this argument?
You might as well give up the claim that your God is different from a leprechaun. You're not fooling anybody.
Phat writes:
Yet ringo never seems to adopt an argument whereby he(you) suggest the possibility of God. Now, why is that?
The real question is Why do you dismiss leprechauns and Bigfeet but accept a God which is no more likely?

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by foreveryoung, posted 05-26-2019 10:31 PM ringo has replied

  
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