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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 605 of 1484 (803017)
03-22-2017 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 604 by Faith
03-22-2017 6:25 PM


Preachers also preach against all the other sins, but at the moment adulterers aren't asking to be given some special status that legally elevates them to some other category or erases their adultery.
Given that "special status" is merely asking for the same the cake you or I could get, your words are easily seen through.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by Faith, posted 03-22-2017 6:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 606 by Faith, posted 03-22-2017 8:05 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 608 of 1484 (803022)
03-22-2017 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 606 by Faith
03-22-2017 8:05 PM


how God's ordinance of marriage
Here is the key. This "ordinance of marriage" thing is not Biblical. Marriage is instead a state sanction union of folks. While it is the case that the state used to not sanction gay marriage, that is no longer the case.
I don't have any problem with your insisting that when you get married you are following dictates of the Bible. Right or wrong, adding a religious component is your choice. What you don't get to do is insist that other folks do the same thing. Many of the folks in question would be happy to forgo your religious blessing. They just want a state sanction marriage.
Does a wedding cake for a woman having her second marriage indicate that you sanction adultery?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 606 by Faith, posted 03-22-2017 8:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 609 by Faith, posted 03-22-2017 10:24 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 612 of 1484 (803030)
03-22-2017 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 609 by Faith
03-22-2017 10:24 PM


All the business owners we are discussing and millions of others who agree with them, disagree with you about that.
I'm sure you are right, but if they as uniformly unsuccessful at pointing out the Biblical support as you have been, their opinions are not of much value.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by Faith, posted 03-22-2017 10:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 616 of 1484 (803034)
03-23-2017 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 609 by Faith
03-22-2017 10:24 PM


Gay marriage is a violation of the marriage ordinance itself. Adultery, although sin, does not challenge the marriage ordinance.
This is totally made up. At worst, homosexuality is an abomination and is not described as any worse than the other abominations in the Bible, many of which you yourself give short shrift to. There is no Biblical marriage ordinance.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by Faith, posted 03-22-2017 10:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 621 by Faith, posted 03-23-2017 10:50 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 623 by Faith, posted 03-23-2017 10:58 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 635 of 1484 (803063)
03-23-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 621 by Faith
03-23-2017 10:50 AM


As long as people keep making this kind of "objective" argument, the only answer left is that all those business owners and some millions of others say you're wrong,
We don't evaluate truth by bean counting. In this case, most of those folks agree that the final arbiter is the text of the Bible. Accordingly, the answer to the question of whether the Bible contains a "marriage ordinance" is primarily an objective inquiry.
Yet is seems the best folks can do are equivalent to saying "It was Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve" or point to verses about a man cleaving to his wife. None of that constitutes a marriage ordinance.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by Faith, posted 03-23-2017 10:50 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 637 of 1484 (803065)
03-23-2017 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 628 by Percy
03-23-2017 11:16 AM


Re: The Main Points
Our baker sells wedding cakes to anyone all the time, but he never writes words that conflict with his fundamental beliefs, such as "All the best in your marriage Chuck and Dave." Plus there's freedom of speech - compelling someone to write something he finds abhorrent doesn't sound very free.
When a baker writes "Happy Birthday to You" on a gay person's cake, do you think he is expressing his pleasure that the gay person was born? Or that he is participating in a celebration in any way? The message on the cake is not from the baker.
On the other hand. If I were tasked with providing a cake for a gay wedding, I'd likely hunt around for a baker who would not object simply because I wouldn't trust someone else not to crap on the cake. Since I live in an urban setting near a bunch of college towns, I'd likely find one pretty easily even here in North Carolina. But that's just not the case every where.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 628 by Percy, posted 03-23-2017 11:16 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 663 by Percy, posted 03-24-2017 8:29 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 681 of 1484 (803148)
03-24-2017 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 675 by Faith
03-24-2017 12:58 PM


Loony of the week nomination...
Faith writes:
But David Horowitz was quite right in his book Big Agenda, and the talk I linked some time back, when he said moralizing is THE weapon of the Left.
Faith, you never disappoint.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 675 by Faith, posted 03-24-2017 12:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 682 of 1484 (803149)
03-24-2017 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 665 by New Cat's Eye
03-24-2017 10:49 AM


Re: The Main Points
Can creating a particular cake for a particular reason be consider expressing an idea? Or does it require writing something?
Once the Supreme Court rules on something, then it is reasonable to incorporate that into the calculation. But when you just make up hypotheticals you are on your own.
The Supreme Court at some future point could rule for or against any particular action being speech. In some cases the rulings about what is speech and what is not speech, (for example flag burning) are controversial. At this point, there is no ruling that baking a wedding cake is speech.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 665 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-24-2017 10:49 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 703 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-27-2017 11:10 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 704 of 1484 (803220)
03-27-2017 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 703 by New Cat's Eye
03-27-2017 11:10 AM


Re: The Main Points
If the SC ruled that, would everyone just shrug and go: "Huh, I guess we were wrong, the bakers should be able to refuse this service."?
You are certainly free to agree or disagree with the Supreme Court. However, your question was based on extending their ruling to something else. Absent some ruling of that type, baking a cake, absent some message on it, isn't speech.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 703 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-27-2017 11:10 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 705 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-27-2017 2:51 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 763 of 1484 (803439)
03-30-2017 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 762 by Faith
03-30-2017 2:24 PM


Re: don't rock the boat
I did not claim the COnstitution supports this in any direct way
Actually, you have made this claim. According to your post, the first time this was ever challenged was when prayer was challenged in public schools. Of course, you have had to drop this position after some old court cases were cited.
The constitution does not support your position in any way; directly or indirectly. In fact, the constitution supports the exact opposite proposition. The founding fathers were well aware of Mormonism, which I suspect you do not consider Christian, Judaism, Islam, and Hinduism, and according to their words, the constitution does not promote any of them above the other.
If you have some support for an alternative position that consists of something other than what you believe ought to be true, now might be a good time for that.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 762 by Faith, posted 03-30-2017 2:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 764 by Faith, posted 03-30-2017 3:53 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 765 of 1484 (803443)
03-30-2017 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 764 by Faith
03-30-2017 3:53 PM


Re: don't rock the boat
However, prayer in schools was not effectively challenged until Madalyn Murray, notwithstanding court cases I'd never heard about...
No relevancy whatsoever to the discussion given that we are not talking about prayer. Do you have any support whatsoever that the constitution has ever been interpreted to allow actions contrary to general public law?
All this just makes me hate some of the Founders for their stupid Enlightenment deism that caused them to betray the Christian foundations of this country,
So I guess you will stop asking what the Founders have to say about issues?
Looks like ringo was right. We've found ourselves a hater.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 764 by Faith, posted 03-30-2017 3:53 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 766 by Faith, posted 03-30-2017 4:21 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 767 of 1484 (803445)
03-30-2017 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 766 by Faith
03-30-2017 4:21 PM


Re: don't rock the boat
You know what "hater" means as a PC epithet. you lying louse. I hate evil, you creep. Sorry the same can't be said of the likes of you.
I'm telling the truth, and I will do so again here:
You've also admitted hating some dead people, namely some of the founding fathers. So yeah, you are a hater.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by Faith, posted 03-30-2017 4:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 769 by Faith, posted 03-30-2017 5:00 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 771 by Faith, posted 03-30-2017 5:10 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 773 of 1484 (803455)
03-30-2017 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 771 by Faith
03-30-2017 5:10 PM


Re: don't rock the boat
"Telling the truth" does not EVER include assassinating the character of your opponent ...
I reported accurate exactly what you said. You assassinated your own character. You are also the one who insists that hater means racist even though we use that term primarily for other reasons. When I need to call you a racist or homophobe, I won't mince words.
I recall a previous discussion where you patted yourself on the back for not judging folks. Percy indicated that agreed with your self-assessment.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 771 by Faith, posted 03-30-2017 5:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 774 of 1484 (803456)
03-30-2017 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 770 by Faith
03-30-2017 5:04 PM


Re: don't rock the boat
Which again shows that the dominantt population was Protestant from the beginning.
Prior to the Constitution, and in some locations/colonies, of course that was the case. In others, not so much. But such dominance is not a constitutional principle.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 770 by Faith, posted 03-30-2017 5:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 780 of 1484 (803497)
03-31-2017 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 778 by Faith
03-30-2017 6:43 PM


Re: don't rock the boat
Hating the enlightenment mentality of the main founders is not the same as wanting to overthrow the Constitution
Pretty amusing.
First, you said you hated the founders and not their mentality. I accept this statement as a correction, so I won't mention that again unless some denials pop up.
Secondly, the constitution we have is the constitution that those founders wrote and that was eventually ratified. In particular, some of those things you wish to see were not omitted, they are contrary to the intentions of the founders and that is something that has been shown via direct quotes. Accordingly, it is impossible to hate the mentality of the deist while still revering the constitution which reflects their intentions. You actually are desiring a different constitution that establishes for legal purposes that Christianity is supreme over all other religions and the law, and that the other religions are shams.
The Constitution is all that holds this pathetically deteriorating nation together
I appreciate the respect for the constitution that your statement engenders, but most Christians would not leave God out of the equation. I certainly would not.
Not engaging with the gratuitous lefty insults. I totally agree with Percy that such things are not productive.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 778 by Faith, posted 03-30-2017 6:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
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