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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
I agree with a lot of things you say in your message. Some problems with this:
I don't like the way people try and falsely compare racism with a Christian belief that certain things God says, are sins. I don't like it either, but surely you are aware that the idea that black people are the sons of Ham, an idea that prominent Creationist Ken Ham still adheres to, was used to justify racism toward and even slavery of people of color. So yeah, the criticism while repugnant, is quite apt. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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NoNukes writes: that the idea that black people are the sons of Ham, an idea that prominent Creationist Ken Ham still adheres to mike the wiz writes: I am not sure Ken Ham would adhere to that. There is no doubt that he adheres. Here is Ham's position from AIG. Note that Ham denies that his belief is racists, and I take him at his word, but he does embrace the descendants of Ham stuff.
quote: But even so, where and when black people originated doesn't affect their status as human beings, because the pigment of skin, the colour of skin, is of no consequence in the bible. First of all, Africans are from among the first people, so the idea that there are descendant's of Ham via Noah is complete nonsense. Secondly, the Bible does speak of curses being visited upon the generations of folks, and the curse on Ham is certainly Biblical. Like many Bible beliefs that folks have espoused, this one can be argued against, but so are some things that folks currently believe, such as the Trinity doctrine for which equally strong counter-arguments can be made. What is the case, however, is that folks did defend racism and slavery on the basis of what can be read in the Bible. It is further the case that the Bible, from cover to cover, is silent about any opprobrium for slavery. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I suppose you also believe creationists eat children. As you can see from the link, there are no races as such, under creationism, so tribes can't be delineated by outer appearance. What is this supposed to mean? Did not Ken Ham agree that Africans and Chinese were descendants of Ham? Did I attribute anything more to him than that? Did I accuse Dr. Ham of racism? I note that Dr. Ham denies that there is a curse of Ham. Yet we can read something that appears quite different in Genesis 9:25.
Certain people groups coming from Ham, has nothing to do with being cursed anyway, in the sense of racism. The question is whether or not folks did actually interpret the Bible as saying that, and whether that interpretation can be textually justified. Of course, it is possible to pick holes in that interpretation, but that is true about other currently mainstream doctrine.
I myself have never read anything racist in the bible, it seems like an open and shut case that wicked people try and get things into the bible so as to justify those agendas by appealing to the bible as the authority which justifies those notions. That's fine. Of course, a good part of the discussion here is about whether folks are mis-interpreting the Bible to justify yet another notion about wedding cakes. I understand that you are not doing that. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
ABE: There is safety in a multitude of counselors says the Bible. Except that every sect, each believing who knows what has a multitude of counselors. You cannot resolve this stuff by voting. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Even within a "sect" there are many different viewpoints, and I don't confine myself to Reformed believers, I read a whole range of commentaries including from some "sects" I would only join if all the others were nuked off the planet. None of which is any guarantee of identifying the truth. In fact, the danger in your approach is confirmation bias. You search until something seems true or resonates. Reading a lot is great. But in the end, it must be the text the is decisive. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I learn something new every time I read a commentary and certainly every time I read the Bible. Maybe I'm just not as dishonest as you. You just cannot disagree in a civilized fashion, can you? I cannot say that I always learn something when I read the Bible or a commentary, but that is what I endeavor to do. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
There is not a person here that supports abortion or gay rights that does not believe in the Government dictating religious beliefs Describe a position on abortion that does not result in dictating religious beliefs on someone. Once again you've gotten to the armpit of the matter while looking for its heart. ABE: Once people figure out that having religious beliefs does not allow you to change the behavior of others, these seeming conundrums go away. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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It really is that simple Faith. Legally aborted fetuses are generally not viable with the exception of those few folks who are unfortunate enough (i.e. about to die) so that they qualify for a late term abortion. The real point is that there is no way to make abortion murder without some particular reason to declare a fetus a human being. The science does not cause us to do that; the ultimate reasons are religious. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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So if I'm unable to adopt a child due to my age and my physical problems I'm not allowed to object to the murder of the unborn? If the original question were valid, then I would ask whether you had adopted any children back when you were younger. But imo the question is really not fair for at least the reason that I already gave jar. Almost no aborted fetuses were viable.
And quite frankly it also seems to me that common sense would tell a person that marriage is for a man and a woman not two of the same sex One of my wife's buddies is an 85 year-old woman who married a man of similar age several years ago. A few months before her marriage, the elderly lady was showing off this enormous diamond boulder on her engagement ring. I suppose some meddling fool should have told the lady that she was incapable of having babies. Common sense should tell you that marriage was not for her. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Removed to comply with Phat's request.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
And it seems to me man and woman is a pretty sufficient definition of those qualified for marriage; I didn't add any other qualifications. In short, you are speaking of some version of common sense that does not require either logic, justification, or even much sense. Just no. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I think it can be argued that abortion is murder without resorting to religion: If your mother aborted you while you were in the womb, would you be alive today? I think it can argued that a miscarriage is involuntary manslaughter. I think it can be argued that using condoms is a conspiracy to commit murder. Yeah, you can argue all of those things. But your arguments should not be taken seriously. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Okay, I'll consider you an automaton just following the Supreme Court's protocols. Sure. And I'll consider you to be a person who makes up bad definitions on the fly. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I think what Dredge is saying is that science doesn't -- and can't -- give any standards for morality. The question I would have is whether such statements are the least bit meaningful.Geometry is another subject that does not provide morality standards. But that does not argue against using it to figure out where your property end and your neighbor's begins. though in fact science-based "moral" standards are often expressed, such as the idea that human life is no more important than animal life, or morality is relative, Some folks may have such ideas, but they are not required by, nor supported by science anymore than slavery is required by the Bible.
So Shariah law is as good as the American Constitution. All that comes from the "science" mentality. Total shite. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Wish it were. You haven't heard such opinions? They are out there People believe a lot of stupid, wrong, and in many cases, destructive ideas based on their impressions of science and theology. Just about anything including pseudo-scientific claptrap easily satisfies as a point of departure for gullible or evil folks.
Evolution has taught us that human beings are not "made in the image of God" but animals that evolved from other life forms. That happens to be what the evidence says. And it turns out that you can still follow Jesus while believing in evolution. Apparently something other than science is to blame here. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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