Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evidence for Evolution: Whale evolution
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 286 of 443 (804174)
04-07-2017 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Dredge
04-07-2017 5:35 PM


Re: Yet the fact remains that Christians oppose Creationism
Dredge writes:
Can you point out where I said Creationism is science, please. And I've never mentioned Intelligent Design.
Whether you mention Creationism or Intelligent design has nothing to do with the fact that all of the major Cristian denominations acknowledge both the fact of evolution and that the Theory of Evolution is the only explanation for the reality seen.
There are NO competing theories that can explain the reality of living critters seen today or in the past.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Dredge, posted 04-07-2017 5:35 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Dredge, posted 04-08-2017 8:18 PM jar has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


(1)
Message 287 of 443 (804175)
04-07-2017 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Percy
04-06-2017 8:44 AM


You seem to saying that the theory of evolution is useful because certain things pertaining to human existence, like technology, evolve. If this is your argument, it's a very poor one.

Technology evolves because humans think of new and better ideas - this process is not depedent whatsoever on the theory of evolution, which is dependent on one species of organism evolving from an existing species. Human technology has been evolving for as long as human have existed - ie, long before the theory of evolution came along.
--------------------------------
Contrary to your claim, evolution is not the "central unifying concept of biology" - rather, evolution is the central unifying concept of evolutionary biology.
Biology would continue to progress and not suffer in any way if the theory of evolution didn't exist, because nothing that is practicaly useful in biology depends on speciation.
In short, the theory of evolution needs biology, but biology doesn't need the theory of evolution.
----------------------------------
Mutations within a species is not speciation. Flu vaccines are not dependant speciation, so are not dependant on the theory of evolution. Human migration patterns are not dependant on speciation, so are not dependant on the theory of evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Percy, posted 04-06-2017 8:44 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Percy, posted 04-08-2017 7:34 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 288 of 443 (804176)
04-07-2017 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Pressie
04-06-2017 7:10 AM


Every claim of "speciation" make by evolutions that I've investigated has turned out to be decidedly unconvincing - dare I say, bogus.
(Ditto for the examples of real-time "evolution" that Darwinist myth-makers peddle - such as antibiotic resistance. What mendacious nonsense. I've learnt that evolutionary "science" can't be trusted to tell the truth.)
Can you please provide me with an example of observed speciation ... please note that the new species will have been assigned a different biological (binomial) name to the species that it (supposedly) evolved from.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Pressie, posted 04-06-2017 7:10 AM Pressie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Coyote, posted 04-07-2017 6:40 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 290 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-07-2017 7:00 PM Dredge has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 289 of 443 (804182)
04-07-2017 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Dredge
04-07-2017 5:57 PM


Example of speciation
Here is a case of speciation that RAZD has posted several times:
Pelycodus was a tree-dwelling primate that looked much like a modern lemur. The skull shown is probably 7.5 centimeters long.
The numbers down the left hand side indicate the depth (in feet) at which each group of fossils was found. As is usual in geology, the diagram gives the data for the deepest (oldest) fossils at the bottom, and the upper (youngest) fossils at the top. The diagram covers about five million years.
The numbers across the bottom are a measure of body size. Each horizontal line shows the range of sizes that were found at that depth. The dark part of each line shows the average value, and the standard deviation around the average.
The dashed lines show the overall trend. The species at the bottom is Pelycodus ralstoni, but at the top we find two species, Notharctus nunienus and Notharctus venticolus. The two species later became even more distinct, and the descendants of nunienus are now labeled as genus Smilodectes instead of genus Notharctus.
As you look from bottom to top, you will see that each group has some overlap with what came before. There are no major breaks or sudden jumps. And the form of the creatures was changing steadily.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Dredge, posted 04-07-2017 5:57 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Dredge, posted 04-08-2017 8:20 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 290 of 443 (804184)
04-07-2017 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Dredge
04-07-2017 5:57 PM


Every claim of "speciation" make by evolutions that I've investigated has turned out to be decidedly unconvincing - dare I say, bogus.
So, have creationists been lying to us all this time?
The Institute For Creation Research says "New species do arise, a process called "speciation."
Answers In Genesis says "Species do change. Since Darwin’s day, many observations have confirmed this. In fact, new species have even been shown to arise within a single human lifetime", adding: "As creationists, we must frequently remind detractors that we do not deny that species vary, change, and even appear over time".
The CreationWiki says: "Species have been observed to form, and Biblical creationism requires rapid speciation following the Flood."
Not to be outdone, Creation Ministries International says: "New species have been observed to form. In fact, rapid speciation is an important part of the creation model."
So, are all the creationists lying to us about speciation, this "important part of the creation model" which "Biblical creationism requires" ... or are you one of those sinister "detractors" that Answers In Genesis warned us about?
(Ditto for the examples of real-time "evolution" that Darwinist myth-makers peddle - such as antibiotic resistance. What mendacious nonsense. I've learnt that evolutionary "science" can't be trusted to tell the truth.)
You don't believe in the evolution of antibiotic resistance? Ooh, I can see we're going to have some fun with you.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Dredge, posted 04-07-2017 5:57 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Dredge, posted 04-08-2017 8:07 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 291 of 443 (804185)
04-07-2017 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Dredge
04-07-2017 5:50 PM


Dredge writes:
Despite much googling I've been unable to find a practical use for the theory of evolution. So maybe you can help me out by citing an example.
You've been given examples. You're not interested.
Contrary to your claim, I never said it's useless to study how things are.
Then your complaint is what exactly?
Thinking you know how the universe works doesn't mean you are correct. That is to say, the theory of evolution could be wrong,
Hey! You said something almost sensible. It could be wrong but it's now very highly unlikely to be wrong as everything we have discovered since Darwin has confirmed it.
just as the theory of a flat earth was wrong.
Flat earth was never a theory. At best it was a hypothesis. And guess how we found out it was round? Here's a clue, we didn't read it in the bible.
Star Trek has contributed more to science than the theory of evolution, which, in my opinion, is nothing more than a pseudo-scientific creation story for atheists - not to mention, the greatest hoax in history.
Star Trek is pretty good at using scientific ideas for story telling. That's a bit different to doing science.
The theory of evolution doesn't even belong in science, since it can't be put to the test.
Wrong. The biggest problem you have is in not knowing what the thing you rage against actually is, so you make yourself look like a blithering idiot just by starting to type. Why not learn what evolution is before telling lies about it. At least then you'd know when you were lying.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Dredge, posted 04-07-2017 5:50 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 292 of 443 (804186)
04-07-2017 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Dredge
04-07-2017 5:50 PM


The theory of evolution doesn't even belong in science, since it can't be put to the test.
Study the scientific method a bit, then get back to us.
In the meantime: Science doesn't take direction from anti-science creationists as to what is and is not science, and how science should be conducted.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Dredge, posted 04-07-2017 5:50 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 293 of 443 (804187)
04-07-2017 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Dredge
04-07-2017 5:50 PM


You are absolutely right that there isn't any practical use to evolution whatever. As a science in that respect it is an absolute bust. There is nothing you can do with it. Real science has a practical purpose, evolution has none. I'm glad to see this stated.
Except of course the purpose of destroying western civilization and its morality.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Dredge, posted 04-07-2017 5:50 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2017 7:40 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 295 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2017 7:44 PM Faith has replied
 Message 297 by Coyote, posted 04-07-2017 7:51 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 294 of 443 (804188)
04-07-2017 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Faith
04-07-2017 7:35 PM


Faith writes:
Except of course the purpose of destroying western civilization and its morality.
You're confused Faith. Evolution just tells us that species are not immutable. That disturbed some 19th century bible bashers but somehow morality remained unaffected. I am burdoned with a very large dose of it despite all of evolutionary science's attempts to knock it out of me.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Faith, posted 04-07-2017 7:35 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 295 of 443 (804189)
04-07-2017 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Faith
04-07-2017 7:35 PM


Faith writes:
You are absolutely right that there isn't any practical use to evolution whatever.
1. It's practical value is in explaining how all life on earth works. It couldn't get more useful and important than that.
2. It's second most practical use is in debunking childish mythologies.
3. If it has no practical value, what the hell are you complaing about?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Faith, posted 04-07-2017 7:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Faith, posted 04-07-2017 7:49 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 335 by Dredge, posted 04-09-2017 4:53 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 296 of 443 (804190)
04-07-2017 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Tangle
04-07-2017 7:44 PM


As I said it's only practical purpose is to tear down western civilization, that's what I'm objecting to.
Besides the fact that it's a big fat delusion and not true at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2017 7:44 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2017 8:21 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 297 of 443 (804191)
04-07-2017 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Faith
04-07-2017 7:35 PM


Real science has a practical purpose...
Of course, real science, as defined by creationists, is any science that doesn't disprove their beliefs?
No wonder we say that creationists are anti-science!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Faith, posted 04-07-2017 7:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Faith, posted 04-07-2017 8:00 PM Coyote has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 298 of 443 (804192)
04-07-2017 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Dredge
04-07-2017 5:35 PM


Re: Yet the fact remains that Christians oppose Creationism
Yes, jar is right that many supposedly Christian denominations have come to embrace evolution-- and gay marriage and many other notions that are contrary to Christianity, and you are right that this is because of the apostasy or falling away predicted in scripture. The Protestant Reformers (who were of course all originally Catholics just to keep that on the table) identified Roman Catholicism itself as the Great Apostasy of prophecy and the Pope as the Antichrist. You even seem to agree that recent popes aren't exactly Christian, as true believers must. And the papacy has also embraced evolution. What seems to be happening now is that more and more churches are falling in line with Rome, joining in the Great Apostasy. There are fewer and fewer true believers left.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Dredge, posted 04-07-2017 5:35 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 299 of 443 (804193)
04-07-2017 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Coyote
04-07-2017 7:51 PM


There's really only one science, or kind of science, creationists object to, and that is the utterly unprovable Old Earth/evolutionist sciences. True science is something else altogether, the kind that develops medical cures and sends things into outer space and designs all sorts of technologies. The discovery of the DNA molecule was certainly true science -- replicable science of the best kind. Too bad so much evolutionist hooha has gotten itself attached to it. Geology of course also does a lot of true science, but as with so many other sciences, hampered by evolutionist/Old Earth delusions.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Coyote, posted 04-07-2017 7:51 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Coyote, posted 04-07-2017 10:35 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 300 of 443 (804194)
04-07-2017 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Faith
04-07-2017 7:49 PM


Faith writes:
As I said it's only practical purpose is to tear down western civilization, that's what I'm objecting to.
Somehow Western civilisation seems to be doing just fine with the knowledge.
Besides the fact that it's a big fat delusion and not true at all.
You wish. I'm pretty sure that deep down, you know it's true but just can't accept it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Faith, posted 04-07-2017 7:49 PM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024