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Author Topic:   How do you define the word Evolution?
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 121 of 936 (804643)
04-11-2017 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Dredge
04-11-2017 8:16 PM


Dredge writes:
When scientists refer to the theory of evolution they are referring to the theory that complex life as we know it today evolved from less complex life - a single-cell organism, to be exact.
No, once again that is simply not true. However the evidence is clear that for many millions of years only very simple life forms lived.
BUT, if a very simply life for did exist, then at that time the only direction would be towards greater complexity. However very simple forms of life continued to exist just as they exist today.
Dredge writes:
Evolution requires more than just natural selection, so it is erroneous to cite antibiotic resistance as an example of evolution.
Only con men, Creationists and the ignorant seem to think foolish nonsense like that.
Guess what? At least since Darwin the two sides, mutation and natural selection have been fundamental to the Theory of Evolution.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 122 of 936 (804646)
04-11-2017 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
04-11-2017 9:00 PM


Guess what? At least since Darwin the two sides, mutation and natural selection have been fundamental to the Theory of Evolution.
Well, not mutation, since that depended on some knowledge of genetics which Darwin did not have, and didn't come along for quite some time after Darwin.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 123 of 936 (804649)
04-11-2017 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Faith
04-11-2017 9:10 PM


Guess what? At least since Darwin the two sides, mutation and natural selection have been fundamental to the Theory of Evolution.
Well, not mutation, since that depended on some knowledge of genetics which Darwin did not have, and didn't come along for quite some time after Darwin.
Well, he wrote extensively about variation, he just didn't know that it arose from mutations. He knew that natural selection acted to eliminate some variations and favor others. Simple yet elegant.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 04-11-2017 9:10 PM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 124 of 936 (804650)
04-11-2017 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Tanypteryx
04-11-2017 9:51 PM


Well, he wrote extensively about variation, he just didn't know that it arose from mutations. He knew that natural selection acted to eliminate some variations and favor others. Simple yet elegant.
I see. Interesting. Of course it DOESN"T arise from mutations, the alternative forms of the genes are built in; and of course although natural selection is sometimes the cause of the elimination of some variations to favor others, it happens more often from the new gene frequencies brought about by the simple splitting of a population into two or more subpopulations, and especially in the smaller population, with reproductive isolation.
I guess I need to write my own book on evolution.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-11-2017 9:51 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-11-2017 10:22 PM Faith has replied
 Message 140 by caffeine, posted 04-12-2017 5:20 PM Faith has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 125 of 936 (804651)
04-11-2017 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
04-11-2017 10:08 PM


Of course it DOESN"T arise from mutations, the alternative forms of the genes are built in
Of course, there is not one shred of evidence to support your fantasy. Not a single geneticist agrees with you. You know, they actually study genes.
I guess I need to write my own book on evolution.
Well, we know that's not going to happen, don't we? What you know about evolution will fit on 2 pages at most.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 04-11-2017 10:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 04-11-2017 10:37 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 126 of 936 (804654)
04-11-2017 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Tanypteryx
04-11-2017 10:22 PM


It will be a short book, short but pithy, and of course I'll do it in two sections, the one on biology as just described, and the other on geology which will show the absurdity of the Old Earth interpretation of the strata. I'll be happy to send you a signed copy.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 127 of 936 (804659)
04-11-2017 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Faith
04-11-2017 10:37 PM


A book on evolution that has a geology section. Interesting. You really do show your lack of knowledge and education quite often.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

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 Message 131 by Davidjay, posted 04-12-2017 1:02 AM Theodoric has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 128 of 936 (804661)
04-12-2017 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Dredge
04-11-2017 8:16 PM


quote:
When scientists refer to the theory of evolution they are referring to the theory that complex life as we know it today evolved from less complex life - a single-cell organism, to be exact
Wrong. They would be more likely referring to the mechanisms by which life changes over time. The evolution of antibiotic resistence being an example of those mechanisms in action.
quote:
Antibiotic resistance involves nothing more natural selection, in the form of a cull of most the various strains of a certain species.
In experimental demonstrations of antibiotic resistance it is quite common to start with a clonal population. If selection were all there was to it, there would be no differing strains to select from.
quote:
Evolution requires more than just natural selection, so it is erroneous to cite antibiotic resistance as an example of evolution.
And there IS more to antibiotic resistance - the resistance is the product of mutation.
So now we have established that you were wrong, perhaps you will be less quick to throw false accusations in the future.

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 Message 119 by Dredge, posted 04-11-2017 8:16 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Meddle
Member (Idle past 1270 days)
Posts: 179
From: Scotland
Joined: 05-08-2006


(2)
Message 129 of 936 (804662)
04-12-2017 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Dredge
04-11-2017 8:16 PM


Take antibiotic resistance, for instance, which is commonly cited by evolution science as a sterling example of "evolution".
Antibiotic resistance involves nothing more natural selection, in the form of a cull of most the various strains of a certain species. So antibiotic resistance doesn't produce a more complex, more evolved organism than what was already there. The bugs that survive the antibiotic don't undergo any change to "become" resistant - they were already resistant.
Yes, just look at antibiotic resistance. For resistance to beta-lactams like methicillin requires changes to a protein necessary for cell wall synthesis; macrolide resistance can occur from modification of the ribosome, essential in protein synthesis; quinolone resistance needs to modify a protein responsible for supercoiling of DNA to prevent damage of the DNA; and co-trimoxazole resistance involves changes to enzymes involved in the folic acid pathway, necessary for the bases used in DNA/RNA synthesis.
These may not be a change in complexity, however you feel like measuring it, but they do represent modifications to pathways that are highly critical to the survival of the cell. If mutations can cause such significant changes without killing the organism, why is it so surprising that less significant changes in protein expression in multi-cellular organisms can result in the diversity we see in species today?
Edited by Meddle, : No reason given.
Edited by Meddle, : No reason given.

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Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2328 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 130 of 936 (804663)
04-12-2017 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by ringo
04-11-2017 11:58 AM


Re: Nature ran a lottery ????
Sure... I can name real Christian Scientists who discovered the laws of our Creator..
(from http://whychristianity.com)
Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)
Copernicus was the Polish astronomer who put forward the first mathematically based system of planets going
around the sun. He attended various European universities, and became a Canon in the Catholic church in 1497. His
new system was actually first presented in the Vatican gardens in 1533 before Pope Clement VII who approved, and
Copernicus was urged to publish around this time. Copernicus was never under any threat of religious persecution -
and was urged to publish both by Catholic Bishop Guise, Cardinal Schonberg, and the Protestant Professor George
Rheticus. Copernicus referred sometimes to God in his works, and did not see his system as in conflict with the
Bible.
Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
Kepler was a brilliant mathematician and astronomer. He did early work on light, and established the laws of
planetary motion about the sun. He also came close to reaching the Newtonian concept of universal gravity - well
before Newton was born! His introduction of the idea of force in astronomy changed it radically in a modern
direction. Kepler was an extremely sincere and pious Lutheran, whose works on astronomy contain writings about
how space and the heavenly bodies represent the Trinity. Kepler suffered no persecution for his open avowal of the
sun-centred system, and, indeed, was allowed as a Protestant to stay in Catholic Graz as a Professor (1595-1600)
when other Protestants had been expelled!
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo is often remembered for his conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. His controversial work on the solar
system was published in 1633. It had no proofs of a sun-centred system (Galileo's telescope discoveries did not
indicate a moving earth) and his one "proof" based upon the tides was invalid. It ignored the correct elliptical orbits
of planets published twenty five years earlier by Kepler. Since his work finished by putting the Pope's favourite
argument in the mouth of the simpleton in the dialogue, the Pope (an old friend of Galileo's) was very offended.
After the "trial" and being forbidden to teach the sun-centred system, Galileo did his most useful theoretical work,
which was on dynamics. Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, he saw his system as concerning the issue
of how the Bible should be interpreted.
Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
Descartes was a French mathematician, scientist and philosopher who has been called the father of modern
philosophy. His school studies made him dissatisfied with previous philosophy: He had a deep religious faith as a
Catholic, which he retained to his dying day, along with a resolute, passionate desire to discover the truth. At the age
of 24 he had a dream, and felt the vocational call to seek to bring knowledge together in one system of thought. His
system began by asking what could be known if all else were doubted - suggesting the famous "I think therefore I
am". Actually, it is often forgotten that the next step for Descartes was to establish the near certainty of the
existence of God - for only if God both exists and would not want us to be deceived by our experiences can we trust
our senses and logical thought processes. God is, therefore, central to his whole philosophy. What he really wanted
was to see his philosophy adopted as standard Catholic teaching. Rene Descartes and Francis Bacon (1561-1626) are
generally regarded as the key figures in the development of scientific methodology. Both had systems in which God
was important, and both seem more devout than the average for their era.
Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
In optics, mechanics, and mathematics, Newton was a figure of undisputed genius and innovation. In all his science
(including chemistry) he saw mathematics and numbers as central. What is less well known is that he was devoutly
religious and saw numbers as involved in understanding from the Bible God's plan for history. He did a lot of work
on biblical numerology, and, though aspects of his beliefs were not orthodox, he thought theology very important. In
his system of physics, God is essential to the nature and absoluteness of space. In Principia he stated, "The most
beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent
and powerful Being."
Robert Boyle (1791-1867)
One of the founders and key early members of the Royal Society, Boyle gave his name to "Boyle's Law" for gasses,
and also wrote an important work on chemistry. The Encyclopaedia Britannica says of him: "By his will he
endowed a series of Boyle lectures, or sermons, which still continue, "for proving the Christian religion against
notorious infidels."... As a devout Protestant, Boyle took a special interest in promoting the Christian religion
abroad, giving money to translate and publish the New Testament into Irish and Turkish. In 1690 he developed his
theological views in The Christian Virtuoso, which he wrote to show that the study of nature was a central religious
duty." Boyle wrote against atheists in his day (the notion that atheism is a modern invention is a myth), and was
clearly much more devoutly Christian than the average in his era.
Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
The son of a blacksmith who became one of the greatest scientists of the 19th century. His work on electricity and
magnetism not only revolutionized physics, but has led to so much in our lifestyles today which depend on them
(including computers and telephone lines and so Web sites). Faraday was a devoutly Christian member of the
Sandemanians, which significantly influenced upon him and strongly affected the way in which he approached and
interpreted nature. The Sandemanians originated from Presbyterians who had rejected the idea of state churches, and
tried to go back to a New Testament type of Christianity.
(From http://whychristianity.com)
Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
The son of a blacksmith who became one of the greatest scientists of the 19th century. His work on electricity
and magnetism not only revolutionized physics, but has led to so much in our lifestyles today which depend on
them (including computers and telephone lines and so Web sites). Faraday was a devoutly Christian member of
the Sandemanians, which significantly influenced upon him and strongly affected the way in which he
approached and interpreted nature. The Sandemanians originated from Presbyterians who had rejected the idea of
state churches, and tried to go back to a New Testament type of Christianity.
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)
Mendel was the first to lay the mathematical foundations of genetics, in what came to be called "Mendelianism".
He began his research in 1856 (three years before Darwin published his Origin of Species) in the garden of the
Monastery in which he was a monk. Mendel was elected Abbot of his Monastery in 1868. His work remained
comparatively unknown until the turn of the century, when a new generation of botanists began finding similar
results and "rediscovered" him (though their ideas were not identical to his). An interesting point is that the
1860's was the formation of the X-Club, dedicated to lessening religious influences and propagating an image of
"conflict" between science and religion. One sympathizer was Darwin's cousin Francis Galton, whose scientific
interest was in genetics (a proponent of eugenics - selective breeding among humans to "improve" the stock). He
was writing how the "priestly mind" was not conducive to science whilst, at around the same time, an Austrian
monk was making the breakthrough in genetics. The rediscovery of the work of Mendel came too late to affect
Galton's contribution.
Kelvin (William Thompson) (1824-1907)
Kelvin was foremost among the small group of British scientists who helped to lay the foundations of modern
physics. His work covered may areas of physics, and he was said to have more letters after his name than
anyone else in the Commonwealth, since he received numerous honorary degrees from European Universities
who recognized the value of his work. He was a very committed Christian, certainly more religious than the
average for his era. Interestingly, his fellow physicists George Gabriel Stokes (1819-1903) and James Clerk
Maxwell (1831-1879) were also men of deep Christian commitment, in an era when many were nominal,
apathetic, or anti-Christian. The Encyclopaedia Britannica says "Maxwell is regarded by most modern physicists
as the scientist of the 19th century who had the greatest influence on 20th century physics; he is ranked with Sir
Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein for the fundamental nature of his contributions." Lord Kelvin was an Old Earth
creationist, who estimated the Earth's age to be somewhere between 20 million and 100 million years, with an
upper limit at 500 million years based on cooling rates (a low estimate due to his lack of knowledge about
radiogenic heating).
Max Planck (1858-1947)
Planck made many contributions to physics, but is best known for quantum theory, which has revolutionized
our understanding of the atomic and sub-atomic worlds. In his 1937 lecture "Religion and Naturwissenschaft,"
Planck expressed the view that God is everywhere present, and held that "the holiness of the unintelligible
Godhead is conveyed by the holiness of symbols." Atheists, he thought, attach too much importance to what are
merely symbols. Planck was a churchwarden from 1920 until his death, and believed in an almighty, all-knowing,
beneficent God (though not necessarily a personal one). Both science and religion wage a "tireless battle against
scepticism and dogmatism, against unbelief and superstition" with the goal "toward God!"
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated
with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2).
Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe.
The Encyclopaedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's
God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he
once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or
that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."
Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a
real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame,
religion without science is blind."
(end of small excerpt)
Can you name one intelligent evolutionist ? who has discovered any truth ? rather than those confirming evolutionary theory for research grants ?
Jesus wins, real scientists win, evolutionists lose again.

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by ringo, posted 04-11-2017 11:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Pressie, posted 04-12-2017 5:52 AM Davidjay has not replied
 Message 135 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-12-2017 9:32 AM Davidjay has replied
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 04-12-2017 3:45 PM Davidjay has replied
 Message 143 by NoNukes, posted 04-12-2017 11:09 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2328 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 131 of 936 (804664)
04-12-2017 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Theodoric
04-11-2017 11:29 PM


Wake up Theodore..
You have been lied to and pass on the BIG LIE.
""""God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness."""
The truth is you excuse everything and make mistakes and mutations as your supposed creator, saying evolution did it, and then worship it or him or her, without question because it is your religion despite the facts. You have zero credibility except with the intimidated and the lazy and sloughful. Real scientists discover truths rather than maybe , should haves, might have fallcies. Evolution is the BIG LIE
EvolutionisaBIGLIE
Jesus wins Theodore, and you lose until you pick the winner and the truth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Theodoric, posted 04-11-2017 11:29 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Theodoric, posted 04-12-2017 7:59 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 132 of 936 (804679)
04-12-2017 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Dredge
04-11-2017 8:16 PM


Dredge writes:
When scientists refer to the theory of evolution they are referring to the theory that complex life as we know it today evolved from less complex life - a single-cell organism, to be exact.
Nope, that is completely untrue. When scientists refer to evolutionary theory they refer to genetic variation coupled with selection processes; with natural selection being very important.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 133 of 936 (804680)
04-12-2017 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Davidjay
04-12-2017 12:56 AM


Re: Nature ran a lottery ????
Davidjay, you didn't answer the question. Let's remind you what the question was:
ringo writes:
Can you name two or three hundred of those "real" scientists who don't accept evolution?
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

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 Message 130 by Davidjay, posted 04-12-2017 12:56 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 134 of 936 (804688)
04-12-2017 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Davidjay
04-12-2017 1:02 AM


So you refuse to actually address my post.
Please drop the spam links. You are in violation of forum rules. If those links have anything of substance, present it here.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Davidjay, posted 04-12-2017 1:02 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 135 of 936 (804690)
04-12-2017 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Davidjay
04-12-2017 12:56 AM


Re: Nature ran a lottery ????
Sure... I can name real Christian Scientists who discovered the laws of our Creator..
You're claiming Einstein was a "real Christian Scientist"? Do you ever tell the truth?
Can you name one intelligent evolutionist ? who has discovered any truth ?
Let's take the 72 Nobel Prize winners who acted as amici curiae in Edwards v. Aguilard, and who said that "the evolutionary history of organisms has been as extensively tested and as thoroughly corroborated as any biological concept."
Edwards v. Aguillard: Amicus Curiae Brief of 72 Nobel Laureates

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Davidjay, posted 04-12-2017 12:56 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Davidjay, posted 04-12-2017 11:42 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
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