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Author Topic:   How do you define the word Evolution?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 196 of 936 (804985)
04-14-2017 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Dredge
04-14-2017 8:46 PM


Ok, please give me a brief explanation of how you think the process of antibiotic reistance works.
How it works depends on the antibiotic and the mechanism.
If you mean how does it evolve, mutations for resistance arise in the population and spread through it by natural selection and lateral gene transfer.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Dredge, posted 04-14-2017 8:46 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by CRR, posted 04-14-2017 11:46 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 197 of 936 (804986)
04-14-2017 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by CRR
04-14-2017 9:46 PM


He says that when he doesn't have an Adequate reply. I have gotten it several times.
No, I say that when someone is making stuff up and I wish them to stop.
If you were smarter you could have figured that out for yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by CRR, posted 04-14-2017 9:46 PM CRR has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 198 of 936 (804987)
04-14-2017 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Dredge
04-14-2017 7:54 PM


Re: Nobel Prize winners ????
Evolutionists, having hijacked the science of biology, like to think they own it and have re-defined it in their own image. But the truth is, ToE will only ever be an irrelevant little subset of real biology.
Biologists disagree with you. I have to think they know more about biology than you do, what with them being biologists and you being almost entirely ignorant of biology.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Dredge, posted 04-14-2017 7:54 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Dredge, posted 04-15-2017 8:39 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 199 of 936 (804988)
04-14-2017 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Dredge
04-14-2017 7:57 PM


Re: Evolutions have discovered no new laws.. NONE
Kill that infidel, Bouroune! He blasphemes against our god of evolution!
Science isn't religion. You guys burn heretics; we laugh at fools.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Dredge, posted 04-14-2017 7:57 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 200 of 936 (804989)
04-14-2017 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Dredge
04-14-2017 7:40 PM


2) the gene pool of the original population has been seriously diminished as a result of the effect of the toxin - which is DEVOLUTION not evolution!
Faith, Dredge, the two of you need to talk. Wait 'til I get a big bucket of popcorn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Dredge, posted 04-14-2017 7:40 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Faith, posted 04-14-2017 11:00 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 201 of 936 (804994)
04-14-2017 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Dr Adequate
04-14-2017 10:21 PM


2) the gene pool of the original population has been seriously diminished as a result of the effect of the toxin - which is DEVOLUTION not evolution!
Faith, Dredge, the two of you need to talk. Wait 'til I get a big bucket of popcorn.
Dredge has a different approach to these things than I do but I understand what he's saying and agree with him even if I have my own different angle on it and some terminology needs to be sorted out to show our agreement.
So, he's right to call this "devolution" because producing the population of redheads requires the elimination of an enormous number of other phenotypes, and not only hair color but a whole slew of genes that also have to get accidentally eliminated in the process just because they occur in the individuals with the other hair colors. (When you select a particular type all you get is whatever genetic material that type possesses, which leaves out tons of other possibilities.)
When I call this "evolution" what I mean is that this is what is usually considered to be evolution, so it IS evolution as evolutionists think of it, but then I go on to point out that in reality what is conventionally understood to be evolution entails huge losses, which is the opposite of that the ToE requires to be true.
It's microevolution and it illustrates what I keep claiming, that you only get a new population-wide phenotype by losing all the other phenotypes with their genotypes (severely decreasing genetic diversity), just as occurs in "old fashioned" breeding that is based on artificial selection rather than cross breeding.
There's nothing wrong with calling this "devolution" because in reality that's what it is, it's just that evolutionists fail to see what's really going on.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-14-2017 10:21 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-14-2017 11:08 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 220 by ringo, posted 04-15-2017 12:14 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 202 of 936 (804995)
04-14-2017 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Faith
04-14-2017 11:00 PM


Dredge has a different approach to these things than I do but I understand what he's saying and agree with him even if I have my own different angle on it and some terminology needs to be sorted out to show our agreement.
Laughing out loud here.
So, he's right to call this "devolution" because producing the population of redheads requires the elimination of an enormous number of other phenotypes ...
... which is your definition of evolution, Faith.
When I call this "evolution" what I mean is that this is what is usually considered to be evolution ...
No, it's one of the things that is considered to be evolution. It's the only thing that you'll admit is evolution, but when literally anyone but you is doing the considering, lots of other things are considered to be evolution too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Faith, posted 04-14-2017 11:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 203 of 936 (804997)
04-14-2017 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Dredge
04-14-2017 7:54 PM


Re: Nobel Prize winners ????
Evolutionists, having hijacked the science of biology, like to think they own it and have re-defined it in their own image. But the truth is, ToE will only ever be an irrelevant little subset of real biology.
ToE is like a parasite riding on the back of an elephant (true biology) - the parasite needs the elephant, but the elephant doesn't need the parasite.
And creationists have invented the term "evolutionists" to describe anyone who studies a field of science whose results contradict their ancient tribal beliefs.
What a joke!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Dredge, posted 04-14-2017 7:54 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by CRR, posted 04-14-2017 11:58 PM Coyote has replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 204 of 936 (804999)
04-14-2017 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Dredge
04-14-2017 7:40 PM


But who knows how anyone can see "evolution" in it
The problem is that it can be evolution depending on the definition of the word! That is why this topic is "How do you define the word Evolution". Strangely many of your critics have not posted their definition yet.
In your example with the redheads There has been a change in the allele frequency in the population in that a lot of genetic information, for different hair colours, has been lost. According to the definition used by population genetics that is evolution, or what others outside the field would call microevolution.
But you are right, no new alleles or genes have been created so the result is the variability in the gene pool has been lessened. Evolution by genetic loss must eventually result in extinction. I would extend this to say that speciation is step towards extinction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Dredge, posted 04-14-2017 7:40 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-14-2017 11:45 PM CRR has not replied
 Message 207 by Coyote, posted 04-14-2017 11:49 PM CRR has not replied
 Message 253 by Dredge, posted 04-16-2017 9:01 PM CRR has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 205 of 936 (805000)
04-14-2017 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by CRR
04-14-2017 11:38 PM


I would extend this to say that speciation is step towards extinction.
Well, that's odd. Why would you do that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by CRR, posted 04-14-2017 11:38 PM CRR has not replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 206 of 936 (805001)
04-14-2017 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Dr Adequate
04-14-2017 10:12 PM


How it works depends on the antibiotic and the mechanism.
If you mean how does it evolve, mutations for resistance arise in the population and spread through it by natural selection and lateral gene transfer.
Brief certainly, but not much of an explanation. Perhaps a specific example will help. Do those mutations arise in response to antibiotic use or independently? How does this tie in with the results from the Franklin Expedition?
[Hint: Read my posts for some helpful information ]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-14-2017 10:12 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-15-2017 12:09 AM CRR has replied
 Message 210 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-15-2017 12:20 AM CRR has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 207 of 936 (805002)
04-14-2017 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by CRR
04-14-2017 11:38 PM


Evolution by genetic loss must eventually result in extinction. I would extend this to say that speciation is step towards extinction.
That's a popular creationist view, entirely unsupported by the biological and genetic sciences.
I suspect that that view stems from the religious belief in "the fall," which is also entirely unsupported by the biological and genetic sciences.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by CRR, posted 04-14-2017 11:38 PM CRR has not replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 208 of 936 (805004)
04-14-2017 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Coyote
04-14-2017 11:21 PM


Re: Nobel Prize winners ????
Coyote,
Can you substantiate that claim that creationists have invented the term "evolutionists"? This sounds like the discredited claim that Creationists invented the terms micro- and macroevolution.
According to dictionary.com the word was first recorded in 1855-60; evolution + -ist; and is proudly used by evolutionists such as Karl W. Giberson.
If you can't a retraction would be in order.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Coyote, posted 04-14-2017 11:21 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Coyote, posted 04-15-2017 12:47 AM CRR has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 209 of 936 (805006)
04-15-2017 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by CRR
04-14-2017 11:46 PM


Do those mutations arise in response to antibiotic use ...
No.
How does this tie in with the results from the Franklin Expedition?
I know no discovery on the part of Franklin and his crew that would support Lamarckism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by CRR, posted 04-14-2017 11:46 PM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by CRR, posted 04-15-2017 2:44 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 210 of 936 (805010)
04-15-2017 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by CRR
04-14-2017 11:46 PM



This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by CRR, posted 04-14-2017 11:46 PM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by CRR, posted 04-15-2017 2:27 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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