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Author Topic:   The TRVE history of the Flood...
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 181 of 1352 (805393)
04-18-2017 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by CRR
04-18-2017 6:20 AM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
Yes, it's likely that the Grand Canyon is the result of Noah's Flood
You don't think the river at the bottom of it is a clue? Nah, course you don't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by CRR, posted 04-18-2017 6:20 AM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 12:25 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 265 by CRR, posted 04-19-2017 3:50 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 182 of 1352 (805394)
04-18-2017 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by NoNukes
04-18-2017 11:27 AM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
NoNukes writes:
The dates are established based on evidence that you have no way to refute.
Quite correct.
I started a thread just for creationists to challenge the dating methods, particularly radiocarbon dating, but there was no evidence introduced to show those methods are flawed.
Creationists let belief overrule evidence, so they won't accept those dates and dating methods no matter what.
The overall result? Their objections are meaningless.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2017 11:27 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 183 of 1352 (805397)
04-18-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Dr Adequate
04-18-2017 11:26 AM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
It does make me happy when my own observations turn out to fit what the Big Guy creationists are also saying.
Of course, your conclusions are at complete variance with those of people who studied the rocks instead, and that too means something.
Those who study the rocks come to them with a head full of bias just as a creationist does. They can only see what their theory tells them to see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 11:26 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by jar, posted 04-18-2017 11:53 AM Faith has replied
 Message 186 by Coyote, posted 04-18-2017 11:55 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 184 of 1352 (805399)
04-18-2017 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by NoNukes
04-18-2017 11:27 AM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
Grand Canyon OBSERVATIONS, not suppositions.
The dates are established based on evidence that you have no way to refute.
Yes, and that is because you can't prove anything one way or another for the distant past. That's the problem with the historical sciences which I've argued many times and CRR just mentioned as well. The dating methods are no exception. And the absurdity of the enormous time periods assigned to rocks and fossils in itself ought to call them into question. Microevolution can produce many new species within hundreds of years. Millions is overkill to the max. Not to mention that producing those new species or subspecies entails a loss of genetic information that is the opposite of what the ToE assumes. AND the neat flat surfaces of the strata certainly belie the long ages Time Periods interpretation. It's really quite laughable if you just open your eyes and wipe away the ToE bias.
Also, Stonehenge and the pyramids are older than the flood? Incidentally, the pyramids are never even mentioned in the Bible. All dated via multiple methods.
Yes of course Stonehenge and the pyramids post date the Flood. And all the dating methods you have can't be corroborated for the unwitnessed past.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2017 11:27 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Coyote, posted 04-18-2017 12:00 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 185 of 1352 (805401)
04-18-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
04-18-2017 11:43 AM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
Faith writes:
Those who study the rocks come to them with a head full of bias just as a creationist does. They can only see what their theory tells them to see.
Faith, Faith, Faith! You know you are just not telling the truth again. Reality is that Geology began under the misconception that the Earth was young and that there was a Biblical flood and other such nonsense. That was the common bias until folk actually looked at the evidence. Since then (at least a few hundred years) the utter nonsense of Young Earth and Biblical Flood have rightly been thrown on the trash heap.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 11:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 11:59 AM jar has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 186 of 1352 (805402)
04-18-2017 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
04-18-2017 11:43 AM


On theory--again
Faith writes:
Those who study the rocks come to them with a head full of bias just as a creationist does. They can only see what their theory tells them to see.
As I have posted many times before, a theory is the single best explanation for a given set of facts. It organizes and explains those facts, and is contradicted by no relevant facts.
If there are facts that contradict a theory, then that theory must figure out how to deal with them.
You believe that you and other creationists have facts that disprove an old age for the earth and an ancient origin for the Grand Canyon. The problem is that your "facts" do not stand up to scrutiny. All the "evidence" you have shown on these various threads for a flood origin for the Grand Canyon has been shown to be incorrect.
So its not a matter of bias--the facts fit with an old earth and an old Grand Canyon, but they do not fit with young ages for either.
And the facts show there was no global flood during human times.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 11:43 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 187 of 1352 (805403)
04-18-2017 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by jar
04-18-2017 11:53 AM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
Yes it's unfortunate that the first creationist geologists had some very wrong ideas. They couldn't see that ALL the strata would have been the result of the Flood for one big mistake they made. there were lots of silly ideas about what the fossils are too.
There were similar silly creationist ideas in biology that Darwin did quite rightly undo -- what is not normally noticed in all this, however, is that those early creationist ideas are not biblical. The biological ideas included multiple creations for instance; the Bible says God created everything in the first six days of creation and then He rested.
the leap from these errors to the errors that biology and geology now labor under was not warranted. Hutton brought the Old Earth idea to bear based only on his fallible imagination.
And I'm getting AWFULLY tired of being called a liar based only on your different opinion of these things.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by jar, posted 04-18-2017 11:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Coyote, posted 04-18-2017 12:05 PM Faith has replied
 Message 193 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 12:22 PM Faith has replied
 Message 201 by jar, posted 04-18-2017 12:50 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 188 of 1352 (805404)
04-18-2017 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Faith
04-18-2017 11:51 AM


Dating (again)
And all the dating methods you have can't be corroborated for the unwitnessed past.
That is absolutely false.
Tree rings alone corroborate radiocarbon dating. So do glacial and lake varves, corals, and speleothems.
The young earth belief has been rendered false for a long time now.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 11:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 12:05 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 189 of 1352 (805405)
04-18-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Faith
04-18-2017 11:59 AM


On "opinions"
And I'm getting AWFULLY tired of being called a liar based only on your different opinion of these things.
Its not a "different opinion" that is the issue here.
One "opinion" fits with and explains all the relevant real world evidence, while the other is contradicted by the real world evidence.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 11:59 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 12:07 PM Coyote has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 190 of 1352 (805406)
04-18-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Coyote
04-18-2017 12:00 PM


Re: Dating (again)
No, the young earth has lots of evidence on its side. Lots. It's been shown here over and over and over. Your side has evidence TOO, but it's not evidence you can claim to be conclusive, sorry. The dating methods THEMSELVES cannot be corroborated. Referring to other kinds of evidence is not what is needed, because they too are subject to differing interpretations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Coyote, posted 04-18-2017 12:00 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 191 of 1352 (805407)
04-18-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Coyote
04-18-2017 12:05 PM


Re: On "opinions"
Yes it is opinion. Two biblical floods for instance is ...stupid...opinion. And all your dating methods are opinion too, because they cannot be verified for the past they purport to date. Sorry. You guys all call your opinions facts, but they aren't.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Coyote, posted 04-18-2017 12:05 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Coyote, posted 04-18-2017 12:22 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 195 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 12:25 PM Faith has replied
 Message 202 by jar, posted 04-18-2017 12:56 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 192 of 1352 (805410)
04-18-2017 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Faith
04-18-2017 12:07 PM


Re: On "opinions"
And all your dating methods are opinion too, because they cannot be verified for the past they purport to date.
Sorry, but your opinions on dating are worthless, as they stem from religious belief rather than facts.
Others of us have actually studied dating methods and used them, so we have some knowledge of what they are, how they work, and their limitations.
For example, I have studied and used radiocarbon dating for about 40 years; I have been on the advisory board for a radiocarbon laboratory, and both written and lectured on the subject. I presented a one-hour workshop on radiocarbon dating last month.
And there are other posters here who are even more knowledgeable than I am!
Given this--belief on one hand and hard-earned knowledge on the other, it is safe to say not all opinions are of equal validity.
Your opinions when it comes to dating are of no value.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 12:07 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 193 of 1352 (805411)
04-18-2017 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Faith
04-18-2017 11:59 AM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
Yes it's unfortunate that the first creationist geologists had some very wrong ideas. They couldn't see that ALL the strata would have been the result of the Flood for one big mistake they made.
Once again could I remind you that I have demonstrated that this claim of yours is complete bollocks. Please make a note of it this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 11:59 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 12:28 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 194 of 1352 (805413)
04-18-2017 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Dr Adequate
04-18-2017 11:30 AM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
Yes, it's likely that the Grand Canyon is the result of Noah's Flood
You don't think the river at the bottom of it is a clue? Nah, course you don't.
CRR is in Australia and presumably asleep at the moment, so I'll give my opinion:
Of course the river is a clue. It's what's left of the huge deluge that carved the canyon about 4200 years ago. But the idea that that little river itself could have done that is so absurd that you really ought to laugh at yourself for the thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 11:30 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by ringo, posted 04-18-2017 12:29 PM Faith has replied
 Message 204 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 1:14 PM Faith has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 195 of 1352 (805414)
04-18-2017 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Faith
04-18-2017 12:07 PM


Re: On "opinions"
And all your dating methods are opinion too, because they cannot be verified for the past they purport to date.
And the stars we see through telescopes are opinion too, because the telescopes cannot be verified for the distances over which they purport to see?
And now let us turn to your opinion that there were once living dinosaurs. How did you verify that, remind me?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 12:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 12:29 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
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