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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
Faith
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Posts: 25844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 406 of 715 (805038)
04-15-2017 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 405 by jar
04-15-2017 7:30 AM


Daniel 9
There is nothing related to Jesus in Daniel 9. Only a dishonest apologist can pretend Daniel is about Jesus.

I'd say the entire evangelical Church regards Daniel 9 as a prophecy of the timing of the coming of the Messiah, also most other branches of Protestantism. I'm sure that won't stop you from calling all of us "dishonest apologists" of course.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by jar, posted 04-15-2017 7:30 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by jar, posted 04-15-2017 7:40 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 408 by PaulK, posted 04-15-2017 11:54 AM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 407 of 715 (805040)
04-15-2017 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Faith
04-15-2017 7:34 AM


Re: Daniel 9
Faith writes:

I'd say the entire evangelical Church regards Daniel 9 as a prophecy of the timing of the coming of the Messiah, also most other branches of Protestantism. I'm sure that won't stop you from calling all of us "dishonest apologists" of course.

Correct on both points.

Edited by jar, : fix quote


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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PaulK
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Posts: 12969
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 408 of 715 (805080)
04-15-2017 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Faith
04-15-2017 7:34 AM


Re: Daniel 9
To be fair many may be ignorant and deceived rather than dishonest. But there is no doubt that Daniel 9 is not about Jesus, and any claims of exact dates from Daniel 9 are certainly false.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Faith, posted 04-15-2017 7:34 AM Faith has responded

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 Message 409 by Faith, posted 04-15-2017 5:16 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 409 of 715 (805102)
04-15-2017 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by PaulK
04-15-2017 11:54 AM


Re: Daniel 9
To be fair many may be ignorant and deceived rather than dishonest. But there is no doubt that Daniel 9 is not about Jesus, and any claims of exact dates from Daniel 9 are certainly false.

And who are you to contradict the entire Church?

Put "Daniel 9 prophecy" into Google to see some of the sources that recognize Daniel 9 as counting to the coming of Jesus Christ.


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 Message 408 by PaulK, posted 04-15-2017 11:54 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by PaulK, posted 04-15-2017 5:22 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12969
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 410 of 715 (805104)
04-15-2017 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 409 by Faith
04-15-2017 5:16 PM


Re: Daniel 9
quote:

And who are you to contradict the entire Church?

I don't.

Who am I to contradict popular falsehoods ? Someone who has done the research and found the truth. It isn't hard to do. The lame excuses of the apologists are easy to see through with just a little digging.

If you think that there are convincing arguments start a thread. I will take them down. And you have been here long enough to know that I am not bluffing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by Faith, posted 04-15-2017 5:16 PM Faith has responded

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 Message 411 by Faith, posted 04-15-2017 9:25 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 411 of 715 (805118)
04-15-2017 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by PaulK
04-15-2017 5:22 PM


Re: Daniel 9
I'm not up to such a debate right now, but before I'd even consider it I'd want to know if your view of the book of Daniel is based on "modern scholarship" that places its writing after the events it prophesies, rather than my view, which of course takes its own timing clues at face value.
This message is a reply to:
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 Message 412 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2017 2:00 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12969
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 412 of 715 (805127)
04-16-2017 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by Faith
04-15-2017 9:25 PM


Re: Daniel 9
There are points against the idea that the prophecy refers to Jesus without touching on when it was written (e.g. the numbers don't add up quite right, even given the questionable choice of start point, the seventieth week did not happen on schedule).

However since the evidence favours the scholarly view (that is WHY it is the view taken by scholars) naturally I favour it.


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Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 413 of 715 (805142)
04-16-2017 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by PaulK
04-16-2017 2:00 AM


Re: Daniel 9
OK I shall start a PROPOSED TOPIC called Daniel 9, 1st Coming to 2nd Coming

Why because it details in advance His EXACT Death Year, via 69 weeks. With the last week or seven years being the standard basic, time prophecy of Revelation, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Thessalonians, Mathew etc etc.... starting with the Covenant, the
Nuclear War, the Great Tribulation, seven trumpets and then the 2nd COMING and new Beginning.

Easy to comprehend if you are open minded and know Grade Six Math. See you there.

NO offense Faith, but you didnt want to discuss it before, why NOw. Nevertheless, see you there


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


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Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 414 of 715 (805302)
04-17-2017 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 413 by Davidjay
04-16-2017 9:48 AM


Re: Daniel 9 is MATH is Science, is TRUE
Your silence is deafening...evolutionists. You cant take the challenge, you have had enough of math that destroys your luck and chance and billion years of slow evolution theory. So now you sleepeth, or maybe you are trying to catch up on your Grade SIX MATH to be able to comprehend the mathematics and exactness of 69 times 7.

Nevertheless even though it takes longer, do remember that multiplication is just addition, done in a faster way. But the basis is simply addition of numbers, or in this case exact years.

Ill help you I promise.

Dont be afraid, take the challenge and learn. Instead of being closed minded to science and math, open up your minds.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by Davidjay, posted 04-16-2017 9:48 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 422 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-25-2017 8:05 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Genomicus
Member
Posts: 846
Joined: 02-15-2012
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 415 of 715 (805307)
04-17-2017 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by Davidjay
04-17-2017 11:56 AM


Re: Daniel 9 is MATH is Science, is TRUE
...or maybe you are trying to catch up on your Grade SIX MATH to be able to comprehend the mathematics and exactness of 69 times 7.

That was like...2nd grade math for me. Guess this comment is a reflection of the educational quality of your childhood. Anyway, it'd be funny watching you debate an Orthodox Jewish rabbi, but I don't believe you can think past your emotions.


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 Message 414 by Davidjay, posted 04-17-2017 11:56 AM Davidjay has responded

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 Message 416 by Davidjay, posted 04-19-2017 8:55 AM Genomicus has not yet responded

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 416 of 715 (805552)
04-19-2017 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by Genomicus
04-17-2017 12:26 PM


Re: Daniel 9 is MATH is Science, is TRUE
I think in exact terms not emotions.

Daniel 9 is exact, and evolutionists and athiests hate it and prophecy to the max, because it is an adictment against them,

My estimation of Grade 6 Math needed for Daniel 9 is pretty closde, as then they start multiplication. Some of my grandchildren are doing this at present. Mind you, 3rd world schools are MUCH better mathematically than our new Math, anything close math, estimations, dont offend anyone Math being taught in Western schools. The West is so far behind, as they intentionally try to dumb down their children so they wont be intelligent enough to see through the lies of their parents, and rulers).

So Yes, multiplication is more appropriate for doing the math in Daniel 9... you can do it Gen... just think back or get a refresher course.

69 times 7 = 483 PLUS 7 = 490


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Genomicus, posted 04-17-2017 12:26 PM Genomicus has not yet responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 417 of 715 (806393)
04-25-2017 11:19 AM


Jesus mocks those that have no prophecy ....
I love these verses as Jesus, chodes and mocks all others who have failed prophecies and failed worldly knowledge and who deny HIS PROPHECIES from HIS PROPHETS...

3"Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me! 4"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it?

Hahaha... the Lord says, buck up man, stand up you whimps....

Wait til you read onward, it looks like the Lord of Creation is very upset with you deniers and de**********.

(PS Also do note that the Lord says directly that HE made the measurements... the distances , the speeds and times.

the distances , the speeds and times.

the distances , the speeds and times.

the distances , the speeds and times.

(See Tabernacle of the Sun, and Light Speed Design


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 418 of 715 (806440)
04-25-2017 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 399 by Faith
04-14-2017 5:52 PM


Re: The Star: Another calculation for Christ's birth that's grounded in the Bible
I've seen some good evidence that the zodiac contains the story of the gospel if you know how to read the signs, and that idea makes use of scripture to prove the point.

Surely the Bible directly addresses practices of this nature.

I'll certainly remember this, and likely bring it up again the next time you make claims about what constitutes good evidence.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by Faith, posted 04-14-2017 5:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by Faith, posted 04-25-2017 3:29 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 419 of 715 (806445)
04-25-2017 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 418 by NoNukes
04-25-2017 3:04 PM


Re: The Star: Another calculation for Christ's birth that's grounded in the Bible
The Bible forbids astrology, which this isn't. It's a really interesting study of the sky around the time of Christ's birth, using a bona fide Astronomy program. Yes the position of the planets in the zodiac is important but it's not used astrologically. The author dealt with that worry early on in the study.

He's tracking down Biblical references, principally trying to find out what the "star" was that the wise men followed.* (He concludes it was a close conjunction of two planets that would have been very bright to the naked eye), and explains how it "stopped" over the town of Bethlehem.

Besides the star he finds interesting celestial explanations for such things as the moon turning to blood according to biblical prophecy, and the woman in Revelation with twelve stars on her head and the moon at her feet.

I'm not sure he's got all the timing right for the events he was looking for but there is no doubt this is a really interesting study that is based on what the wise men of the east would have seen in the sky in their day. Larsen has the interesting thought, by the way, that those wise men may have been from a Jewish school trained by the Prophet Daniel (who never left Babylon) -- because who but the Jews would be so interested in the birth of a Jewish King? Who knows, could be.

ABE: * He tells the history of Kepler's search for the Star, and explains that he failed because of a wrong date given for Herod's death in the writings of Josephus.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 7034
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 420 of 715 (806455)
04-25-2017 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by Faith
04-25-2017 3:29 PM


Re: The Star: Another calculation for Christ's birth that's grounded in the Bible
Faith writes:

He's tracking down Biblical references, principally trying to find out what the "star" was that the wise men followed.* (He concludes it was a close conjunction of two planets that would have been very bright to the naked eye), and explains how it "stopped" over the town of Bethlehem.

You can find stars above Bethlehem every night of every year.


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 Message 419 by Faith, posted 04-25-2017 3:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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