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Author Topic:   The TRVE history of the Flood...
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 255 of 1352 (805501)
04-18-2017 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Dr Adequate
04-18-2017 11:38 PM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
Wouldn't the erosion from the mile of strata have filled in the canyon?
It broke up, due I think to the raising of the whole area, which is seen on the cross sections. Cracks formed in the upper layers. The water was starting to recede, it was no longer just standing, it exited over abd around the raised plateau and it exited through the cracks, the cracks kept widening, the water kept receding, the broken up strata came with it, it all rushed through the cracks until it was all gone through what was now a huge canyon,
But apart from that, what puzzled me is that, y'know, water is flat, it finds its own level. Nothing's going to pour over the edge in a great cataract while the land is covered in water.
It's receding now, not just standing. As it recedes there is more space for water above to recede to.
I'm sure there are many rivers with greater volume that haven't carved canyons.
You must be equally sure that there are other places besides Arizona that have been subject to a universal flood.
So?
(The reason for the Grand Canyon in real geology is the uplift of the Colorado Plateau.)
There is a pronounced uplift illustrated on the cross sections but it doesn't seem to be extensive enough to be the Colorado Plateau. However, maybe that's what it is. In any case yes I think the uplifted land is the reason for the canyon, for the breaking up of the higher strata, for the cracks that admitted the water, etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 11:38 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2017 12:04 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 262 of 1352 (805508)
04-19-2017 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Dr Adequate
04-18-2017 11:56 PM


Re: On "opinions"
He becomes a direct witness of what he sees when he looks at the eyepiece of the telescope (just as the geologist is a direct witness of what he sees when he looks at the readout of the dating machine). But to say that that somehow makes the astronomer an eyewitness of the stars would, even at best, be assuming the very thing you're being challenged to prove --- that looking at the lens of the telescope half an inch in front of your eye gives you an accurate picture of (for example) the Andromeda Galaxy, 14,700,000,000,000,000,000 miles away, when you have never been there to verify that the telescope really does accurately represent things that far away.
We don't have to assume that the witness is 100% accurate or that adjustments won't have to be made as observations accumulate. But the telescope gives us a direct witness in a way that dating methods don't. You act as if those don't have all kinds of error problems for one thing. The results always have to be interpreted, in fact often corrected by other observations. Direct witness isn't perfect but it doesn't have those problems.
It ought to be unarguable that a written document describing events in the past, that has lots of agreement from account to account, gives clues to how to date the events, mentions historical real-world kings and leaders that can be tracked extrabiblically, and so on, is a lot better witness than an error-prone atomic decay system.
Being able to look at the stars should give a lot more reliable information than a theory about what the stars look like and how far away they are based on blind measurements.
Many people can look through the telescope and agree about the observed facts too. .All you have for the past on earth is speculation, or theory, and anybody who isn't up on the theory and contemplates the same information is very likely not to agree with all the others in the same situation.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 11:56 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2017 1:34 AM Faith has replied
 Message 295 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2017 3:55 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 267 of 1352 (805528)
04-19-2017 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Dr Adequate
04-19-2017 1:34 AM


Re: On "opinions"
Your fake might get a few nuts to follow it, but anybody who follows the Bible would know it was a fake. The Bible is authentic history and that's why it is a good witness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2017 1:34 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 268 of 1352 (805529)
04-19-2017 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Dr Adequate
04-19-2017 3:56 AM


Re: Re:Grand Canyon is the result of Noah's Flood
But it does not look like it was carved out by a river. the narrow parts maybe but not the wide parts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2017 3:56 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Pressie, posted 04-19-2017 7:01 AM Faith has not replied
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 Message 278 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2017 10:01 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 281 of 1352 (805596)
04-19-2017 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by NoNukes
04-19-2017 12:04 PM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
All of which is extremely non-Biblical. The only thing the Bible tells us about the force of the Flood is that the rising of the water was extremely, and likely supernaturally gentle. With regards to the receding of the flood waters, that too was apparently gentle as folks on the boat did not report any undue effects.
Funny how we're always being reminded that the Bible isn't a scientific text but then it seems we're expected to just do a better job of treating it as a scientific text. The Bible is history and it gives enough facts to allow us to make some intelligent guesses about the physical effects of the worldwide Flood it describes.
The Bible doesn't say much at all to allow us to conclude just how quiet it was or wasn't. We have a lot of leeway for speculating based on our own experience of the physical world how the little it says fits with observations of the condition of the earth. If the Flood was real then certainly it is responsible for great effects on the earth, how could it be otherwise? And there are certainly plenty of obvious effects that should be ascribed to that event.
Using your imagination, intelligently of course, it would be reasonable to expect that the result of forty days and nights of heavy rain teerwhere on the planet, which is what the Bible say happened, would saturate the earth to quite a depth, would cause gigantic mudslides and so on. Some violence would be expected from huge amounts of mud tumbling downhill into the sea. The rising phase of the FLood should then be fairly quiet, as well as the period at the height of the Flood where it stayed quiet for a couple of months. (Oceans are also constantly moving, however, with waves, tides, currents and so on, so it would probably never be as a still as a lake.) But when the water recedes it will again disturb the land, in this case the strata that have been built up by the Flood. All that broken-up strata flowing downhill could be described as violent in its effects in some places, as huge amounts of debris-laden water flows back to its former sea level.
What creationists are doing is exactly what should be done with the Biblical information in conjunction with the geological facts. The strata that occur everywhere around the globe fit the description of the layering of sediments caused by rising sea level, as observed by Johannes Walther. A very good fit with the conditions of the Flood.
The prevailing idea that the strata represent time periods is truly absurd. Separated sediments for starters would be a very unlikely result of millions of years of life on earth. Then their lying horizontally one on top of another with no signs of anything similar to what is seen on the earth's surface today, just flatness, plus their containing an abundance of dead things, is NOT what the surface of the earth normally does, but exactly what the Flood would have done. That was its purpose, after all, to wipe out all living things on the land. A lot of sea life died too, of course.
Further, for all we know, the grand canyon itself predates the flood. Nobody on the planet witnessed anything that happened on this continent, or on 5 of the other continents we currently know about.
Yes, and that leaves it for us to speculate on what did happen. The idea that the canyon could have predated the Flood is highly unlikely, to put it mildly, because that much water would have reduced it all to mud and debris, no doubt completely filled in the canyon itself, mixing the sediments together, utterly destroying the form of the canyon itself. There would have been no identifiable strata left, chunks of it at best, no coherent shape to the formation. But of course the idea that the strata were formed in any other way than by the Flood itself is the most glaring absurdity. The worldwide Flood is THE reasonable interpretation, the ONLY reasonable interpretation, all the rest is just weirdly improbable.
So what you are actually posting here is speculation that does not agree with the facts
Oh it fits the facts beautifully.
and detail that can be observed regarding the canyon. We know this because when you point us at the GC, you get upset when we look too closely.
Oh I see. It's your training as a psychoanalyst that tells you the fault is in my personality, we don't need to consider my actual arguments. Nonsense. You distort the facts, you aren't looking "closely," you're refusing to acknowledge the obvious when it's pointed out. The post I am responding to is a monument to unreality and sheer destructive nonsense. Blithering nonsense. I don't know about getting upset but if something could get me that upset it would be this sort of lying mangling of the truth and denial of the obvious.
Perhaps you should stick to the story as told in the Bible.
You understand neither the Biblical account nor the geological facts. The problem with an open public debate is that such stupid ideas as yours are given as much weight as reasonable ones, and on a site predisposed against biblical interpretations the stupid ideas often get a lot of traction and undeserved approval by people who haven't a clue to any of the issues.
ABE: Apparently you, like too many other so-called Christians, don't care a fig whether the Bible is treated as a myth and Christians as delusional believers in a fake "sky wizard." I don't understand that attitude. Defending the faith as well s we can is our calling.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2017 12:04 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2017 3:13 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 289 by jar, posted 04-19-2017 3:18 PM Faith has replied
 Message 294 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2017 3:51 PM Faith has replied
 Message 302 by kbertsche, posted 04-19-2017 6:51 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 282 of 1352 (805597)
04-19-2017 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Dr Adequate
04-19-2017 10:01 AM


Re::Grand Canyon is the result of Noah's Flood
Meanders have nothing in common with the widest parts of the canyon.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2017 10:01 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-19-2017 2:53 PM Faith has replied
 Message 285 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2017 3:03 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 284 of 1352 (805607)
04-19-2017 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by New Cat's Eye
04-19-2017 2:53 PM


Re: Re::Grand Canyon is the result of Noah's Flood
You are misusing the term "meander" in its nonscientific sense. Please see Message 210

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 286 of 1352 (805611)
04-19-2017 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Dr Adequate
04-19-2017 3:03 PM


Re: Re::Grand Canyon is the result of Noah's Flood
I'm not talking about the shape of the walls, I'm talking about the width of the canyon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2017 3:03 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 291 of 1352 (805625)
04-19-2017 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by jar
04-19-2017 3:18 PM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
Yes I should have anticipated that twist. Amazing how many ways there are to destroy the truth.

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 Message 289 by jar, posted 04-19-2017 3:18 PM jar has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 292 of 1352 (805626)
04-19-2017 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by jar
04-19-2017 3:21 PM


Re: Re::Grand Canyon is the result of Noah's Flood
And amazing how many ways there are to misunderstand what one would think was a simple point. The shape of the walls means their widening toward the top, not their nonexistence. Sigh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by jar, posted 04-19-2017 3:21 PM jar has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 297 of 1352 (805643)
04-19-2017 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Astrophile
04-19-2017 5:34 PM


Re: On "opinions"
Nobody treats Beowulf as a historical document to live your life by. And it only has one author unlike the Bible which was written by many different authors over about 1500 years all agreeing with each other and teaching the same doctrine through different historical events. It's so silly to make such comparisons.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 298 of 1352 (805644)
04-19-2017 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by NoNukes
04-19-2017 3:55 PM


Re: On "opinions"
To the extent that it is historical then I would assume its dates are useful for tracking historical events. That doesn't make it anything at all like the Bibble. See previous post on Beowulf.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 299 of 1352 (805645)
04-19-2017 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by NoNukes
04-19-2017 3:51 PM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
I do happen to think my extrapolations about what the Flood would have done, which are pretty much in line with most creationist thinking, make your silly thoughts hardly worth reading.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 301 of 1352 (805647)
04-19-2017 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by jar
04-19-2017 6:47 PM


Re: more just plain not true assertions
Your utterly ridiculous misreading of the Bible does not give you the right to declare my view of it false. I have two millennia of the best Bible exegetes behind me. You are deluded by your own silly ego that likes to lord it over true believers.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 303 of 1352 (805649)
04-19-2017 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by kbertsche
04-19-2017 6:51 PM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
Flood Geology makes tons of sense and you are just another deceived Christian. Sorry, but I understand what I'm talking about and the arguments here are nothing but bias. I can hardly believe anyone could look at the strata and not KNOW that millions of years of living things in some stage of evolution is an utterly STUPID interpretation of a slab of rock, but that a worldwide Flood explains it to perfection. Evolution between the creatures represented in the fossil record taking millions of years is stupid, time periods is stupid, and evolution contradicts the Bible too.
But thanks SO much for your thoughtful input.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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