Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.

Satan! Yeh, well, I live in the 21st century, if you choose to live in the 16th there's not much anyone can do about it. To my knowledge atheists are quite a minority. I haven't done the maths but I would guess that Christian biologists outnumber these atheists by a considerable amount. But no doubt you can tell me how many creationist biologists there are? Any at all? What utter rubbish. I know many atheists, to my knowledge I'm the only one that takes the vaguest interest in evolutionary biology and even I only read anything about it when a new discovery is made that interests me. I haven't even read the book that is often claimed by people like you to be the bible of evolution - 'on the origin of species' - and I know of no one else that has. I love the idea of attending little prayer groups every Sunday and geting down on our knees chanting sections of it whilst learning others by heart. Maybe even keeling before an image of Darwin every night in abject worship. Do get a sense of proporion. Only in your fantasies chuck, only in your deluded madness. No, it's the ONLY topic. All the rest is a smoke screen.

Jolly good for them. So what? What makes you think that? Most atheists I know couldn't give a rats arse about evolution. Like belief in your book, it never crosses most of their minds. If they think of it at all, it's just another bit of occasionally interesting scientific knowledge.You creationists are obsessed with the ToE, the rest of the world isn't.Now I suspect that there is a high correlation between acceptance (not belief) in the ToE and atheism. That's to be expected; atheists tend to be rational people. But is the relationship causal - is it buggery. Do you think saying that repeatedly whilst hearing every 'evolutionist' deny it is helping your case? Has anyone here ever agreed with you? Has anyone outside your little bubble said that? Have you ever asked an atheist or an 'evolutionist' whether they think even their dog's life is worth more than a bug's? Or their goldfish?You're talking total bollox.

I think you're so used to people disagreeing with you that when we don't, you miss it.Remember us all saying that morality was not objective? We agree that morality is subjective, created by ourselves and changes over time.Our values and how we arrive at them have nothing to do with the ToE. That's the bit you need to get over. I know you want the ToE to be an atheist's replacement for your god and bible but it ain't. Not even close. The nearest I can get to it for you is that evolution was responsible for developing our huge brain and its consciousness which allowed us to create our own values and moral systems as we subjective see fit. Well, like I say, it definitely did and does influence people. But how can it possibly be a world view in the way you mean - an all encompassing theory of life, the universe and the meaning of life? Of course it isn't it's just an explanation of how species evolved. Billions of people believe in god and accept the ToE. All it does is add some corroboration to the already well understood idea that the bible is stuffed full of myths and parables. Sin is a silly concept of course but knowing right from wrong isn't. I might be mistaking you but by mentioning the 60s you seem to confusing sex with sin. You knew that stealing, rape, murder, lying was wrong - it's obvious that something that harms others is wrong. Maybe you were confused about things that are called sinful - like sex outside marriage - that needn't be harmful at all. God knows why you equate any of that with the ToE.But look - if evolution hadn't been discovered we'd still know that we are composed of the same stuff as all human life and that we are virtually genetically identical to apes. You would still be forced to object to that knowledge. Aha. But objectivity in this matter is exactly what we have. We have compared entire genomes. The degree of consciousness is our differentiator. You say goddidit, I don't. Yes, yours and mine, everybody's morality is subjective - but governed by cultural norms of behaviour. Your cultural norms are more heavily influenced by your religious beliefs than mine so we differ on such things as sex with a member of my own gender and whether it's sane to own a piece of personal artillery - but on most morality issues we agree about almost everything. I have no problem agreeing that it was a huge influence and have said so. I disgree that this qualifies it as a world view. It's just a fact of life. Most Christians are reconciled to it.As for moral deteroration - ffs, get a life. Moral degeneracy is almost universally an obsession with other people's sexuality and sexulal behaviour. Which is at worst - harmless.

Fair enough, that's we we're here for. Off you go.

I think you need to lead this witness. Just make your case.

Make your mind up, which is it, the ToE makes us no better than bugs or we're not products of the ToE? Yes, we know you find it strange. But so what? Yes, we know that this is your unfounded belief, but so what? It seems important to you to keep repeating this blatant lie - the ToE makes no value judgements. Harming others is wrong, we don't need a ficticious supernatural being to know that - we have an evolved brain. The evidence for our genetic closeness to apes has nothing to do with evolution nor is it a myth. The evidence is in our genes.

quote:

---

The chimpanzee and another ape, the bonobo, are humans' closest living relatives. These three species look alike in many ways, both in body and behavior. But for a clear understanding of how closely they are related, scientists compare their DNA, an essential molecule that's the instruction manual for building each species. Humans and chimps share a surprising 98.8 percent of their DNA.

---

You don't care but here's a simple explanation.http://www.amnh.org/...-past/dna-comparing-humans-and-chimps

First, no one believes in evolution. You believe in a god. Rational people accept the ToE a fact.
Second, I don't disagree that most atheists accept evolution - I don't know and you offer no evidence as usual - but I suspect if you asked atheists, they would agree. I'm trying to explain to you that the majority think no more of it than they think of any other scientific fact. You're reflecting your obsession onto people who have no such thought process. Actually if I'm obsessed with anything it's trying to understand the minds of the deluded creationist. It fascinates me that there are modern people still holding on to 16th century beliefs that have been debunked hundreds of years ago. That's why I'm here.The ToE is just one part of the puzzle - and a relatively minor one when compared to the other things you are forced to reject like the fact that the earth is old. Oh, do grow up. It's great being told by someone who doesn't know me at all, what I think and feel. You haven't the first clue about me.The ToE does not prove that God doesn't exist. Please stop repeating this lie or provide evidence to support it. You need to believe this because you can't imagine life without your own beliefs. I can only tell you that you're flat out wrong. But that won't stop you repeating the lie.

Weird how you keep getting what I think wrong. It's almost like you're imposing your own barmy ideas on me. I find it both strange and fascinating. Also quite amazing and sometimes very hard to believe. But having studied it, I can't deny the fact of it. Unlike you, I don't have an irrational belief that forbids it outright. I don't have to prove it, we both agree that the actions of pyschopathic criminal lunatics are wrong. We know that some behaviours are objectively better than others. We as a society as a whole have decided that individuals who do harm to others damage all of us if we let them. We have an evolved brain that can work this stuff out and, just as importantly, do something about it - build democratic institutions and criminal justice systems that enforce our views on those that could harm us. Well that's interesting - you normally deny that sort of thing when it suits you. Well that makes no sense at all. Yes, that's the thing about science, it constantly improves its estimates as new information and techniques become available. It's smart. Correct. That's another prediction from the ToE that was proven correct later by molecular genetics. Clever how these things all it together isn't it? How so? The 'gap' is explained by our evolved brain.

That's a religious, not a moral argument. Religious arguments are rarely rational. Why not a sacred sheep? Jews think it wrong to eat pork - immoral?. Nah.

Yes, and we both agree that they were wrong. I've said this several times now, you don't seem to be noticing. And yet we both agree that they were wrong. And if you asked 100 random people in the street, you'd get 100 similar responses. How can that be? It seems to me we have a way of deciding what's right and what's wrong. Perhaps you could ponder this one?What is the difference between mass murder and what consenting adults do when they love each other?I suggest the difference is that one is harmful to society and is therefore universally agreed to be wrong whilst the other is not and is merely the dogma of a religious cult. So when the dogma is no longer accepted by society, it's put aside as either irrelevant to the well-being of the people or actually harmful to them.

We are extreemly close in appearance, behaviour and etc. Our major divergence is our brain. We've had 7 million years to develop that. I think this is a question for you. The national genome research institute found that we share 60% of our genome with bananas and more with a fruit fly. Biology say this is because all life depends on similar processes and has evolved from common ancestors therefore organisms will have many points of smilarity in its DNA.You however, claim that humans are specially created. Why are we not 100% different from both apes and bananas? Why is there any similarity at all?

What nonsense. If you want to make the claim that the geneticists are wrong, you're going to have to do some genome sequencing of your own and get yourself published.But of course, you haven't answered the substantive point. Why are we related to other species at all?

Believe me, I'd love to. There are plenty of murderers, thieves and rapists too. As a society we don't allow them to continue with their activities because we think there is a moral difference between those that harm others and those that don't. The laws of modern, democratic, secular societies are based on the prevention of harm to its citizens. We decided what behaviours we prohibit based on whether those activities interfere with the well-being of others. With that as the standard we don't need to look to the supernatural.There is no harm caused by two people loving each other so there is no need for laws that would harm them.

We do not make moral judgements purely by opinion. They are primarily based on the concepts of harm and well-being. We do not allow the murderer to murder. He harms society, regardless of his opinions on the matter.

You have not shown how these figures are wrong, but regardless of that, you continue to avoid answering why there is any relationship at all between apes, humans and bananas. Why is that?