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Author | Topic: How do you define the word Evolution? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Instead of calling natural selection. "evolution", why not call it, "natural selection"? I do.
Instead of calling antibiotic resistance, "evolution", why not call it "antibiotic resistance"? I do.
How about, "the bacteria have ... developed ... resistance to the antibiotic"? But that doesn't distinguish between evolution and phenotypic plasticity or ontogenesis.
Or better still, come up with a term that reflects what has actually happened - ie, that a minority of the original population that were always resistance have multiplied and taken over the joint. But that is not the thing to be described in this case. (Though we do have a word for that. It's also called "evolution".)
Dr. Adequate: "... creationists ... should find another word for it." Maybe replacing "microevolution" with "applied biology" would work. That was a bizarre non sequitur. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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Davidjay: "Desperate Evolutionists will twist anything." Well said; you hit the nail on the head, imo. You can't trust them. You can in fact trust scientists. What you can't do is trust them and believe your halfwitted religious dogma. I see that you've made your choice.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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Accuracy ISN'T my intent ... We noticed.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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So the lucky surviving bacteria, having been exposed to the antibiotic, develop an immunity to it. This sounds similar to how a vaccine works, except instead of becoming immune to a disease (polio, for example), the bacteria become immune to a toxin. No, the bacteria evolve to become immune. See, this is exactly why we need to say that the bacteria evolve immunity, rather than just "developing" immunity, so that people don't get misled into imagining some such process as you describe.
It's a demonstrable scientific fact that some organisms develop immunity to certain diseases, but I've never heard of an organism developing immunity to a toxin. It's called mithridatism, and you must have heard of at least one example of it --- you must know that a long-term alcoholic can drink alcohol in quantities that would kill a non-drinker. (This is not "immunity" in the sense that the immune system is involved, it's done by the liver.) Another example is that people can become immune to snake venom. In this case antibodies are involved. I know of no instance of it occurring in bacteria. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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And the reason we have the Bible is because human beings aren't reliable. Agreed.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
There are Young Earth Creationists who are competent in all fields of science including biology and geology. "There are people who think that 2 + 2 = 5 who are competent in arithmetic."
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I have heard from geologist speakers who followed the reverse path, moving from secular old age geology to young earth. Did they mention what they hit their heads on?
Dobzhansky's quote is often used but as you note many biology classes don't even mention it so it is apparently not required to make sense of these subjects. But as dwise1 points out, the result of such classes is that people can't make sense of the subject.
While it can provide a narrative it seems sufficiently flexible to accommodate almost any set of facts. OK, how would it accommodate the following: * Modern species of mammals are found in the earliest sedimentary rocks. * Human embryos produce and then shed feathers in the womb. * No-one has ever observed any evidence of a beneficial mutation. * Genetic analysis shows that the nearest relative of every species of Old World monkey is a corresponding species of New World monkey. * All and only those mammals with spots or stripes focus their eyes by moving the lens backwards and forwards like an octopus instead of deforming the lens like regular mammals. * Genetic analysis shows that although humans are genetically closest to chimpanzees, chimpanzees are closest to gorillas. * Whales have olfactory pseudogenes ... of bees.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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Well, it is called The Origin of Species, but that's not what creationists mean when they come out with this nonsense is it?
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I notice that in the medical profession, bacteria are said to "become" resistant; no one says bacteria "evolve" resistance. Lots of people say that, as you could have found out by, y'know, looking at what people in the medical profession say instead of making stuff up.
I suspect that the only scientific sphere in which bacteria are said to "evolve" resistance is evolutionary biologiy - because evo-biologists are convinced that antibiotic resistance is evidence that supports their theory that all life evolving from a common ancestor. Then what you suspect is driveling demented lunacy from beginning to end.
I don't think my allusion to vaccine immunity has anything to do with the absence of your magical word. This is gibberish.
Regardless, I'm still in the dark about how what happens after the bacteria are exposed to the antibiotic. You are indeed.
What is the connection between exposure to the toxin and the surviving bacteria producing a beneficial mutation that is passed on to the next generation? If you mean a causal connection, there isn't one.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
No causal connection? Well, well, well; now doesn't that come as a surprise! To you it may, but not to people who've studied evolution: we find this deeply obvious.
Is there any empirical evidence that the alleged post-toxin mutations occur, or is their existence a matter of conjecture? Of course there is evidence; one of the many differences between science and creationism is that in science making stuff up is frowned on.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
OTOH I believe in some cases an environmental stressor can trigger an increase in mutations in certain parts of the genome to help the organism to adapt. This appears to be controlled as an adaptive mechanism. I can't give you a reference off the top of my head. Here's one.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
As I have shown previously some evolutionists do include abiogenesis in their definition of evolution; e.g. Coyne, Kerkut. In the 2009 "Darwin Collection" by The American Association for the Advancement of Science the first article was "On the Origin of Life on Earth" by Carl Zimmer. And ... what is the relevance of this essay to the definition of evolution? Does Zimmer define evolution in some unconventional way in the course of the essay? Please supply a quotation.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
A theory that attempts to explain the origin of species without explaining the origin of the first species is incomplete. Yes, what of it? No-one has claimed that the theory of evolution explains everything, just that it explains the things that it does in fact explain.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Unless of course God actually did it, in which case excluding the possibility before examining the evidence is intellectual laziness and materialistic conceit. Even if he did, just saying so would not in fact be an argument.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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It mis-characterizes YEC's as believing in special creation for each species and fixity of species which does not represent current thinking. That depends who you ask. Dredge was denouncing speciation as an evil-utionist lie just the other week, perhaps you could have explained to him that the thoughts he currently has do not represent current thinking.
This invalidates about 1/2 the paper. His comments about the universal genetic code, cytochrome C, human gill slits, and some bad theology, make it rather out of date. Well, that was vague. I didn't even know theology could go out of date. What observations of God have you made since he wrote the article that invalidate his theology? None? OK, then his guess is still every bit as good as yours. Or better, since it reconciles God with the world we actually live in.
His title "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense except in the Light of Evolution" is wrong. A lot in biology makes perfect sense without evolution. E.g. the physical adaptations of the giraffe to cope with its height are functional requirements ... ... and they evolved, how else do you ... oh yeah, magic. But that does not make perfect sense.
while variations in the genetic code don't make sense in the light of evolution. That's remarkable claim given that we can actually watch these variations evolve.
I also note this quote supporting abiogenesis and universal common ancestry. But not supporting the claim that this is the definition of evolution. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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