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Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 706 of 1002 (805823)
04-20-2017 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 685 by Pressie
04-20-2017 8:48 AM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
Pressie: "the good old sixties"

... the Age of drug-fuelled stupidity and madness. Nothing that idiotic could stand the test of time, but some fools never grew out of it.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 685 by Pressie, posted 04-20-2017 8:48 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 707 of 1002 (805825)
04-20-2017 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 694 by Faith
04-20-2017 3:12 PM


Re: Could you explain your Good Lord remarks
Faith: "Romans 1:22, 23, 25"

Spot on, Faith!

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 3:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 708 of 1002 (805837)
04-21-2017 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 694 by Faith
04-20-2017 3:12 PM


Re: Could you explain your Good Lord remarks
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things...Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator...

* coughs *


This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 3:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 709 of 1002 (805838)
04-21-2017 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 680 by Dredge
04-20-2017 1:53 AM


You say you ignored the Bible and relied on your own conscience to get your morals. If God doesn't exist, then the morality expressed in the Bible is the morality of human beings. How is it possible to prove that your morality is superior to the morality of those human beings whom you think wrote the Bible?

Adolf Hitler's conscience told him that it was morally good to murder six millions Jews. You would no doubt disagree and claim that what he did was morally wrong. How is it possible to prove that your code of morality is correct and that his is wrong?

In both cases I would point to the fact that my morality is less genocide-y.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 680 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2017 1:53 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 713 by Dredge, posted 04-21-2017 9:56 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 710 of 1002 (805967)
04-21-2017 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 693 by jar
04-20-2017 3:00 PM


Re: All you need is ...
This is typical dreamy sickties drivel that John Lennon came up with after his morning dose of LSD. He never grew out of it - much later he wrote more sicksties drivel called "Imagine".
This message is a reply to:
 Message 693 by jar, posted 04-20-2017 3:00 PM jar has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 711 of 1002 (805969)
04-21-2017 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 681 by Tangle
04-20-2017 2:38 AM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
Are you telling me that you don't find it strange that a mindless process can produce a mind? Fascinating.

Tangle: "Harming other is wrong."

Well, that's just your opinion. Adolf Hitler didn't think it wrong to harm Jews. The Khmer didn't think it wrong to murder millons of their own cirizens. You would consider your opinion superior to some others, but how do you prove it?

Tangle: "ToE makes no value judgements"

Ok, but implications can be drawn from facts; so if ToE is a fact, implications can be drawn from it. One implication of ToE is that you can choose to ignore any implications that can be drawn from it.

-------------------------------

When I first heard the yarn, humans and chimps shared about 93% of their DNA. As the years when by, it went up to 95 ... then 98 ... now it's 98.8%! Maybe we'll get to 100% one day! I also heard that humans share a surprisng percentage of their DNA with bananas and horses.

But I digresss. My point is, there is a humungous gap between humans and chimps that DNA fails to explain. Which reminds me, this is off-topic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 681 by Tangle, posted 04-20-2017 2:38 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 712 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2017 9:53 PM Dredge has responded
 Message 719 by Tangle, posted 04-22-2017 2:34 AM Dredge has responded
 Message 720 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2017 9:30 AM Dredge has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 712 of 1002 (805970)
04-21-2017 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 711 by Dredge
04-21-2017 9:46 PM


One implication of ToE is that you can choose to ignore any implications that can be drawn from it.

Do you think you could try to demonstrate that, or are you just typing words at random?

Which reminds me, this is off-topic.

You keep finishing your posts with a declaration that their content is off-topic.

Y'know, at that point you have a wonderful opportunity to not deliberately break the forum rules by, y'know, not hitting the "Submit Post" button.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 711 by Dredge, posted 04-21-2017 9:46 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 715 by Dredge, posted 04-21-2017 10:05 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 713 of 1002 (805971)
04-21-2017 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 709 by Dr Adequate
04-21-2017 1:16 AM


I was hoping you could enlighten me as to how you can prove that your code of morality is any better or more correct than anyone else's code of morality.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 709 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2017 1:16 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 714 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2017 10:00 PM Dredge has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 714 of 1002 (805972)
04-21-2017 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 713 by Dredge
04-21-2017 9:56 PM


You should probably read my posts then.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 713 by Dredge, posted 04-21-2017 9:56 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 716 by Dredge, posted 04-21-2017 10:11 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 715 of 1002 (805973)
04-21-2017 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 712 by Dr Adequate
04-21-2017 9:53 PM


Dr. Adequate: "Do you think youncould demonstrate that ...?"

If naturalistic evolution is a fact, one can draw the implication that human life is meaningless. But if this implication doesn't appeal, then just ignore it and believe that human life has meaning.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 712 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2017 9:53 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 717 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2017 10:14 PM Dredge has responded
 Message 723 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-22-2017 11:16 AM Dredge has responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 716 of 1002 (805974)
04-21-2017 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 714 by Dr Adequate
04-21-2017 10:00 PM


I have been reading your posts. How about a brief explanation of how you can prove that your opinions re morality are more valid or more correct than someone else's?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 714 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2017 10:00 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 718 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2017 10:16 PM Dredge has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 717 of 1002 (805976)
04-21-2017 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 715 by Dredge
04-21-2017 10:05 PM


If naturalistic evolution is a fact, one can draw the implication that human life is meaningless.

How?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 715 by Dredge, posted 04-21-2017 10:05 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 725 by Dredge, posted 04-23-2017 1:24 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 718 of 1002 (805977)
04-21-2017 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 716 by Dredge
04-21-2017 10:11 PM


I have been reading your posts. How about a brief explanation of how you can prove that your opinions re morality are more valid or more correct than someone else's?

That would depend on what his are.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 716 by Dredge, posted 04-21-2017 10:11 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 726 by Dredge, posted 04-23-2017 1:27 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5065
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 719 of 1002 (805993)
04-22-2017 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 711 by Dredge
04-21-2017 9:46 PM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
Dredge writes:

Are you telling me that you don't find it strange that a mindless process can produce a mind? Fascinating.

Weird how you keep getting what I think wrong. It's almost like you're imposing your own barmy ideas on me. I find it both strange and fascinating. Also quite amazing and sometimes very hard to believe. But having studied it, I can't deny the fact of it. Unlike you, I don't have an irrational belief that forbids it outright.

Well, that's just your opinion. Adolf Hitler didn't think it wrong to harm Jews. The Khmer didn't think it wrong to murder millons of their own cirizens. You would consider your opinion superior to some others, but how do you prove it?

I don't have to prove it, we both agree that the actions of pyschopathic criminal lunatics are wrong. We know that some behaviours are objectively better than others. We as a society as a whole have decided that individuals who do harm to others damage all of us if we let them. We have an evolved brain that can work this stuff out and, just as importantly, do something about it - build democratic institutions and criminal justice systems that enforce our views on those that could harm us.

Ok, but implications can be drawn from facts

Well that's interesting - you normally deny that sort of thing when it suits you.

One implication of ToE is that you can choose to ignore any implications that can be drawn from it.

Well that makes no sense at all.

When I first heard the yarn, humans and chimps shared about 93% of their DNA. As the years when by, it went up to 95 ... then 98 ... now it's 98.8%!

Yes, that's the thing about science, it constantly improves its estimates as new information and techniques become available. It's smart.

I also heard that humans share a surprisng percentage of their DNA with bananas and horses.

Correct. That's another prediction from the ToE that was proven correct later by molecular genetics. Clever how these things all it together isn't it?

But I digresss. My point is, there is a humungous gap between humans and chimps that DNA fails to explain.

How so? The 'gap' is explained by our evolved brain.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 711 by Dredge, posted 04-21-2017 9:46 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 734 by Dredge, posted 04-24-2017 12:55 AM Tangle has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(3)
Message 720 of 1002 (806019)
04-22-2017 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 711 by Dredge
04-21-2017 9:46 PM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
Are you telling me that you don't find it strange that a mindless process can produce a mind?

That happens often, it takes about nine months.

And in general, one doesn't have to be an X to make an X. For example, I can make a cake without being a cake. There is nothing puzzling or paradoxical about that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 711 by Dredge, posted 04-21-2017 9:46 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 721 by Faith, posted 04-22-2017 9:33 AM Dr Adequate has responded
 Message 732 by Dredge, posted 04-24-2017 12:50 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
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