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Author Topic:   The TRVE history of the Flood...
Coyote
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Posts: 6029
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 361 of 1352 (805867)
04-21-2017 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by Faith
04-21-2017 12:57 AM


Re: Twelve continuously occupied cities
Dating is not "real-world evidence."

Sure it is!

It is very fine evidence. Its too bad you won't allow yourself to accept it, as it is our key to understanding the past.

Without dating we are stuck with old folk myths about the past.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 12:57 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 9:49 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1833
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 362 of 1352 (805868)
04-21-2017 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by Davidjay
04-21-2017 9:12 AM


Re: Continental Drift is 'Off Topic'
Davidjay writes:

...You suggested I NOT start a new thread on Continental Drift, and debating it with evolutionists...

Evolutionists study biology. Not continental drift. Geologists study plate tectonics, not biology. Different subjects.

You got to accept reality, Davidjay. You seem to be, well, lets put it this way; waaaaay out of your league. You don't even know the basics.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Davidjay, posted 04-21-2017 9:12 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by Davidjay, posted 04-21-2017 9:41 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 363 of 1352 (805871)
04-21-2017 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by Pressie
04-21-2017 9:30 AM


Re: Continental Drift is 'Off Topic'
But as mentioned Continental Drift ir a very different and unique and special event of plate tectonics, and is not about the Worldwide Flood. Two different events as mentioned, divided by some 130 years.

Plate tectronics is definitely about Continental Drift and it is different than the Worldwide Flood. Mixing the two topics together can surely get me to violate the laws HERE of 'Staying on Topic' Nothing is more important than discussing plate tectronics of the past. Thats geology. Thats the topics on this sub-board.

Two different leagues, one advanced from the other in time....and results.

Do consider a new THREAD, even if just for readers rather than for evolutionists who should be only in the biological sub boards.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Pressie, posted 04-21-2017 9:30 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26611
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 364 of 1352 (805873)
04-21-2017 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 361 by Coyote
04-21-2017 9:30 AM


Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Dating is not "real-world evidence."

Sure it is!

It is very fine evidence. Its too bad you won't allow yourself to accept it, as it is our key to understanding the past.

I have a better source of knowledge about the past, but the point about your dating methods is that they are confined to the present and their application to the past is all pure conjecture. Granted it "makes sense" but there is really no way to verify it and as I said I have a better method that says it's wrong.

Without dating we are stuck with old folk myths about the past.

I think it is way beyond the time that you should be allowed to refer to the Bible as a myth the way you do. That is not your call, and there's no point as a debate tactic either. You can't win the debate by declaring your opponent's premise a myth. It is also unproductive to keep repeating your main, or one and only, argument from dating methods.

For a Biblical Creationist the Bible is a trustworthy witness to the past and anything that contradicts it is necessarily false. What's "too bad" is that you so doggedly reject the only reliable source of truth on this planet. There are many of us who started out with your notions and came to recognize the Bible as a supernatural revelation of The Truth. For your sake it would be great if you also came to the same conclusion but nobody is requiring it of you. What SHOULD be required here is the basic respect for a belief system you don't share, as per Rule 10.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by Coyote, posted 04-21-2017 9:30 AM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2017 9:56 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13311
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 365 of 1352 (805875)
04-21-2017 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by Faith
04-21-2017 9:49 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
A question. How is declaring the Flood story a myth different from your assertion that it is a reliable historical account ? And how is it worse than your rejection of the evidence confirming the reliability of scientific dating methods ?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 9:49 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Davidjay, posted 04-21-2017 11:14 AM PaulK has responded
 Message 368 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 11:30 AM PaulK has responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 366 of 1352 (805881)
04-21-2017 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 365 by PaulK
04-21-2017 9:56 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Science dating methods are not reliable beyond a few thousand years, and assume "all things continued without catastrophic interfence..... therefore creation is definitely logical and rational, given its exacting dating methods which have been confirmed via numerous methods as evidenced HERE.

The myth of evolution has not been established yet except in the minds of evolutionists who need it for their religion. For as good religionists they refuse to answer questions regarding its abilities or magical properties.... besides evolutionists vy their own definitions insist they do not cross the bounds to any other field of science.

Again creationism wins as it does answer questions, and has no missing links, whereas evolution just believes in FAITH of throwing the dice over and over and over again until supposedly a good outcome or combination of explosions, provides new viability to a dying species.

The Flood happened as seen by Darwin and Viekosky, and other true obersers of the true geological record.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2017 9:56 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by Tangle, posted 04-21-2017 11:27 AM Davidjay has not yet responded
 Message 371 by Coyote, posted 04-21-2017 11:43 AM Davidjay has not yet responded
 Message 386 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2017 12:59 PM Davidjay has not yet responded
 Message 388 by NoNukes, posted 04-21-2017 1:03 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5163
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 367 of 1352 (805884)
04-21-2017 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Davidjay
04-21-2017 11:14 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Davidjay writes:

The Flood happened as seen by Darwin and Viekosky, and other true obersers of the true geological record.

quote:
Darwin became strongly influenced by the "slow occurring" geology as proposed by Lyell. He observed at his first stop of the Beagle on the Cape Verde Islands (January 16, 1832 to February 8,) sediments enclosed by lava flows and raised above the sea level, but with fossils similar to the shells in the sea nearby (implying no substantial change of the environment over time). He applied the principles formulated by Lyell and became convinced that the surface of earth changes over time only slowly and gradually, not as believed by many naturalists at the time by sudden catastrophic events, like the "biblical flood".

In a letter to his sisters Darwin confessed that he "literally could not sleep for thinking over my [geology]".



Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Davidjay, posted 04-21-2017 11:14 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26611
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 368 of 1352 (805885)
04-21-2017 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 365 by PaulK
04-21-2017 9:56 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
A question. How is declaring the Flood story a myth different from your assertion that it is a reliable historical account ? And how is it worse than your rejection of the evidence confirming the reliability of scientific dating methods ?

Let me see if I can make the point clearer. It's become a broken record that doesn't further the debate in the slightest. We've been exchanging the same opinions over and over but this can never go anywhere because they are basic premises that aren't going to be changed. They are just being asserted rather than used in the argument to any real purpose. It's just a huge waste of time to keep getting this same old same old stuff about the Bible being a myth and dating methods being the last word on the discussion. Or jar's endless carrying on about his ridiculous interpretations of the Bible. Or my statements about the absurdity of the OE/ToE assumptions or that the Bible's dates trump the dating methods. They can be stated as a conclusion from an argument but too often they are just stated over and over and over and over and over in the place of an argument.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2017 9:56 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Taq, posted 04-21-2017 11:37 AM Faith has responded
 Message 372 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2017 11:47 AM Faith has responded
 Message 389 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2017 1:11 PM Faith has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 369 of 1352 (805886)
04-21-2017 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by Faith
04-21-2017 11:30 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Faith writes:

Let me see if I can make the point clearer. It's become a broken record that doesn't further the debate in the slightest. We've been exchanging the same opinions over and over but this can never go anywhere because they are basic premises that aren't going to be changed. The debate is, or should be, BASED on them, not ABOUT them. It's just a huge waste of time to keep getting this same old same old stuff about the Bible being a myth and dating methods being the last word on the discussion. Or jar's endless carrying on about his ridiculous interpretations of the Bible. Or my statements about the absurdity of the OE/ToE assumptions or that the Bible's dates trump the dating methods. They can be stated as a conclusion from an argument but too often they are just stated over and over and over and over and over in the place of an argument.

What would really help is if you could describe geologic features that your model could NOT produce.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 11:30 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 12:05 PM Taq has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13881
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 370 of 1352 (805888)
04-21-2017 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by Faith
04-20-2017 2:19 PM


Re: digression on RCC
Faith writes:

That is RCC false history.


So name the "best exegetes" of Protestant theology between AD 500 and 1500.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 2:19 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 12:28 PM ringo has responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6029
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 371 of 1352 (805889)
04-21-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Davidjay
04-21-2017 11:14 AM


Velikovsky
Do you mean Velikovsky?

From the Wiki page:

Velikovsky's ideas have been almost entirely rejected by mainstream academia (often vociferously so) and his work is generally regarded as erroneous in all its detailed conclusions. Moreover, scholars view his unorthodox methodology (for example, using comparative mythology to derive scenarios in celestial mechanics) as an unacceptable way to arrive at conclusions. Stephen Jay Gould offered a synopsis of the mainstream response to Velikovsky, writing, "Velikovsky is neither crank nor charlatan—although, to state my opinion and to quote one of my colleagues, he is at least gloriously wrong ... Velikovsky would rebuild the science of celestial mechanics to save the literal accuracy of ancient legends."

You could at least spell his name correctly.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Davidjay, posted 04-21-2017 11:14 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2017 11:48 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15972
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 372 of 1352 (805890)
04-21-2017 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by Faith
04-21-2017 11:30 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Let me see if I can make the point clearer. It's become a broken record that doesn't further the debate in the slightest. We've been exchanging the same opinions over and over but this can never go anywhere because they are basic premises that aren't going to be changed. They are just being asserted rather than used in the argument to any real purpose. It's just a huge waste of time to keep getting this same old same old stuff about the Bible being a myth and dating methods being the last word on the discussion. Or jar's endless carrying on about his ridiculous interpretations of the Bible. Or my statements about the absurdity of the OE/ToE assumptions or that the Bible's dates trump the dating methods. They can be stated as a conclusion from an argument but too often they are just stated over and over and over and over and over in the place of an argument.

OK, then let's break this vicious cycle by having you derive the infallibility of the Bible as a conclusion instead of a premise.

If that's too hard, just show that it does not in fact fail with respect to certain specific claims contained in it such as, y'know, the Flood, the age of the Earth, fiat creation of species, that sort of thing. But without taking this as a premise in place of an argument. Go on, show us how it's done.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 11:30 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 12:07 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15972
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 373 of 1352 (805891)
04-21-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by Coyote
04-21-2017 11:43 AM


Re: Velikovsky
You could at least spell his name correctly.

But then he'd have to be right about something.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Coyote, posted 04-21-2017 11:43 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26611
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 374 of 1352 (805894)
04-21-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by Taq
04-21-2017 11:37 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
What would really help is if you could describe geologic features that your model could NOT produce.

But that could be asked of your model too. The real issue isn't that either model can't account for this or that but that we dispute the validity of the theories on both sides that account for this or that. And that's the whole debate.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Taq, posted 04-21-2017 11:37 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by ringo, posted 04-21-2017 12:08 PM Faith has responded
 Message 377 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2017 12:14 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 402 by Taq, posted 04-21-2017 3:48 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26611
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 375 of 1352 (805895)
04-21-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by Dr Adequate
04-21-2017 11:47 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
The topic is the Flood, not the validity of the Bible.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2017 11:47 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2017 12:20 PM Faith has responded

    
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