Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 122 (8763 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-25-2017 11:46 PM
407 online now:
Asgara (AdminAsgara), Coyote, DrJones*, Faith, NoNukes, PaulK (6 members, 401 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: aristotle
Post Volume:
Total: 812,097 Year: 16,703/21,208 Month: 2,592/3,593 Week: 59/646 Day: 59/78 Hour: 1/3

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
2526
27
2829
...
80NextFF
Author Topic:   The TRVE history of the Flood...
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5863
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 391 of 1186 (805921)
04-21-2017 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by Davidjay
04-21-2017 1:03 PM


Re: Re:Stick to the Flood.....
The TOPIC is the GREAT FLOOD..........

The waters of the deep opened up, and pushed their level above the level of all mountain tops worldwide,

And this has been disproved for over 200 years, and all evidence so far still disproves it.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by Davidjay, posted 04-21-2017 1:03 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25309
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 392 of 1186 (805922)
04-21-2017 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by PaulK
04-21-2017 1:11 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
I don't think that you can fairly ask us to stop using strong evidence just because you point blank refuse to accept it.

It's just repetitive assertions, and yes I answser with my own repetitive assertions. What's the use of that?

But I give up this line of reasoning anyway. It doesn't matter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2017 1:11 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2017 1:27 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12768
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 393 of 1186 (805925)
04-21-2017 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by Faith
04-21-2017 1:22 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
quote:

It's just repetitive assertions, and yes I answser with my own repetitive assertions. What's the use of that?

We have had long presentations of evidence for dating methods to which you have offered no adequate response. In contrast claims for the accuracy of the dates in Genesis don't seem to have ever risen above assertion.

So I don't see any real equality here. We have the evidence, you have opinion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 1:22 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 1:31 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25309
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 394 of 1186 (805926)
04-21-2017 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by PaulK
04-21-2017 1:27 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Well, I'm now taking the position that the Bible is evidence. It's God's word, it's the truth, it trumps all the contradictory dating claims. I see no point in repeating this basic conflict ad nauseam.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2017 1:27 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2017 1:33 PM Faith has responded
 Message 396 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2017 1:39 PM Faith has responded
 Message 400 by kbertsche, posted 04-21-2017 2:34 PM Faith has responded
 Message 403 by Taq, posted 04-21-2017 3:49 PM Faith has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15936
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 395 of 1186 (805927)
04-21-2017 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Faith
04-21-2017 1:31 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Well, I'm now taking the position that the Bible is evidence.

For the assertions in the Bible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 1:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 1:40 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12768
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 396 of 1186 (805928)
04-21-2017 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Faith
04-21-2017 1:31 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
quote:

Well, I'm now taking the position that the Bible is evidence. It's God's word, it's the truth, it trumps all the contradictory dating claims

That's your opinion. It's not demonstrable - while the scientific dating methods have huge amounts of confirming evidence. And remember that a considerable amount of that evidence has been discussed here.

quote:

I see no point in repeating this basic conflict ad nauseam.

Then stop. If you can't offer any sensible rebuttals to the dating evidence then don't waste time claiming that the dates are wrong because they contradict your beliefs - which pretty much begs the question anyway, when those beliefs are the point under discussion.

This whole side discussion seems to be nothing more than an attempt,put by you to suppress evidence you have no good answer to.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 1:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 1:43 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25309
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 397 of 1186 (805929)
04-21-2017 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by Dr Adequate
04-21-2017 1:33 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
What do you get out of your silly disruptive little word games?

No, I meant evidence for the argument t for the Flood of course. You had to make me say that? Why? What are you accomplishing with your little games?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2017 1:33 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2017 3:20 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25309
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 398 of 1186 (805930)
04-21-2017 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by PaulK
04-21-2017 1:39 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
I dispute your so called evidence. Get a clue. It is not proved it's just the usual conjecture and assumption that can't be proved. I've argued this, I don't care what you think of my argument.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2017 1:39 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2017 1:53 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12768
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 399 of 1186 (805931)
04-21-2017 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 398 by Faith
04-21-2017 1:43 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
quote:

I dispute your so called evidence.

Pointless arguing by assertion. We know perfectly well that you have no effective rebuttal because the subject has been discussed.

quote:

Get a clue. It is not proved it's just the usual conjecture and assumption that can't be proved.

By any reasonable standard it is proved. Ignoring the evidence won't change that.

Go back to RAZD's threads on correlations. Address the actual evidence. Don't waste time with anti-scientific arguments that ignore the evidence or irrationally reject any possibility of evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 1:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1361
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 400 of 1186 (805933)
04-21-2017 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Faith
04-21-2017 1:31 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Faith writes:

Well, I'm now taking the position that the Bible is evidence. It's God's word, it's the truth, it trumps all the contradictory dating claims. I see no point in repeating this basic conflict ad nauseam.


But Faith, you are conflating the text with the YEC interpretation of the text. Even if the text is divinely inspired and inerrant, human interpretations are not. Gen 1-11 is especially difficult to interpret, because the accounts are very condensed and include a significant amount of imagery (starting with chapter 12, the accounts slow down and become much more detailed).

One fundamental question: when the author says that the Flood covered "the whole earth" or "all the earth", what did he mean? Is this "all" from God's perspective, or from the narrator's perspective? If the latter, the author was likely referring to "all" of the known earth, not the entire globe (just as when Paul said that the gospel had spread to all the earth; he meant all of the known earth, I.e. all of the Roman Empire).


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 1:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 8:14 PM kbertsche has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15936
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 401 of 1186 (805935)
04-21-2017 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by Faith
04-21-2017 1:40 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
What do you get out of your silly disruptive little word games?

No, I meant evidence for the argument t for the Flood of course. You had to make me say that? Why? What are you accomplishing with your little games?

OK, "for the assertions in the Bible about the Flood". If you want to be picky about it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 1:40 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6632
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 402 of 1186 (805939)
04-21-2017 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Faith
04-21-2017 12:05 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Faith writes:

But that could be asked of your model too. The real issue isn't that either model can't account for this or that but that we dispute the validity of the theories on both sides that account for this or that. And that's the whole debate.

If you can't describe potential falsifications for your theory, then it isn't a valid theory.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 12:05 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6632
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 403 of 1186 (805940)
04-21-2017 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Faith
04-21-2017 1:31 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Faith writes:

Well, I'm now taking the position that the Bible is evidence. It's God's word, it's the truth, it trumps all the contradictory dating claims. I see no point in repeating this basic conflict ad nauseam.

The bible being God's word and the truth is the claim, not the evidence. Do you understand the difference between a claim and evidence?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 1:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 7:47 PM Taq has responded
 Message 405 by kbertsche, posted 04-21-2017 8:06 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25309
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 404 of 1186 (805953)
04-21-2017 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by Taq
04-21-2017 3:49 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Cut the word mangling. If the Bible is the truth then what it says about things in the real world can be used as evidence for those things and against contradictory statements about those things.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by Taq, posted 04-21-2017 3:49 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by Tangle, posted 04-22-2017 2:44 AM Faith has responded
 Message 431 by ringo, posted 04-22-2017 11:40 AM Faith has responded
 Message 542 by Taq, posted 04-25-2017 4:13 PM Faith has responded

    
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1361
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 405 of 1186 (805954)
04-21-2017 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by Taq
04-21-2017 3:49 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Taq writes:

The bible being God's word and the truth is the claim, not the evidence. Do you understand the difference between a claim and evidence?


The same thing can be treated as both a claim and as evidence, however. For example, we normally take radiocarbon dates as evidence of actual age. But the radiocarbon date could also be viewed as a claim that is dependent on the sample not being contaminated, the laboratory measurements being done correctly, etc. Once we are convinced that the dating was done correctly, we treat it as evidence on which to rest more claims.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by Taq, posted 04-21-2017 3:49 PM Taq has not yet responded

    
RewPrev1
...
2526
27
2829
...
80NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017