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Author Topic:   How do you define the word Evolution?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 936 (803540)
04-01-2017 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by CRR
04-01-2017 9:51 PM


Re: My definition
I think the term abiogenesis was coined by Thomas Huxley after Pasteur disproved spontaneous generation and formulated the Law of Biogenesis. At that time there was no intention to separate abiogenesis from evolution.
Let's examine what you think for any disconnect from reality.
The theory of evolution was formulated primarily by Darwin who wrote extensively on the Origin of Species (even titling his work as such) at a time when neither the mechanism for inheritable variation nor the origin of life was known. In short, the theory of evolution was entirely independent of abiogenesis from the very beginning.
In the context of arguments about evolution vs. Creationism that there may be a need or logical reason to raise the two in a discussion because Genesis itself covers the origin of life as well as the species. No question that the topic is relevant, but abiogenesis has not proceeded much beyond hypothesis. Panspermia as an alternative to abiogenesis would fill the spot for a suggested origin of life equally well.
Finally, how can your critique the theory of evolution by imposing your own definition? Wouldn't you just be critiquing some other theory that you made up?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by CRR, posted 04-01-2017 9:51 PM CRR has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 936 (804720)
04-12-2017 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ringo
04-12-2017 3:45 PM


Re: Nature ran a lottery ????
First, I asked for two or three hundred. You're short by 189
The case for putting Einstein on the list is notoriously poor. Whatever you want to make of Einstein's remarks about God not playing dice, about the last thing you could call him is a Christian Scientist. For one thing, Einstein was Jewish.
Secondly, to my amusement, this fool claims that Mendelson could have offset the eugenics favored by Galton. Of course, that is not possible as Mendelson's work is fully supported of the feasibility of eugenics. This argument is moronic.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 04-12-2017 3:45 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 936 (804736)
04-12-2017 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Davidjay
04-12-2017 12:56 AM


Re: Nature ran a lottery ????
He did a lot of work
on biblical numerology, and, though aspects of his beliefs were not orthodox, he thought theology very important.
I appreciate your honesty. However biblical numerology is total BS. This is not helping your case.
Einstein was not Christian. If you are able to pigeon hole his beliefs in any way, surely you'd have to start with him being Jewish.
Copernicus avoided any persecution by the Catholic church the old fashioned way; he published when he was about 75 years old and died soon after. Folks tried to get him to publish early, but he knew that he would have been persecuted. So claiming that there was no threat of persecution is completely disingenuous. Why did you make that claim?
Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, he saw his system as concerning the issue of how the Bible should be interpreted.
Galileo said that "The bible teaches us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go". That's a far cry from your BS summary which acknowledges that the Bible describes something different from what Galileo himself discovered. No mention here of Galileo's persecution. That lack is quite funny given your remarks that the Catholic Church tolerated both Kepler and his protestant views.
About Descartes:
. What he really wanted was to see his philosophy adopted as standard Catholic teaching.
How did that work out for him? Here is what wikipedia says about Ren:
quote:
This anthropocentric perspective of Descartes' work, establishing human reason as autonomous, provided the basis for the Enlightenment's emancipation from God and the Church. It also provided the basis for all subsequent anthropology.[72] Descartes' philosophical revolution is sometimes said to have sparked modern anthropocentrism and subjectivism
Yes there are scientists who were also religious. What should we make of that.
Isaac Newton was perhaps the greatest physicist of all time. Yet he practice alchemy and investigated the field of optics by sticking needles behind his own eyeballs, and was by all accounts a jealous, vengeful, and often petty human being. How much of that should we attach to the fact that Isaac Newton was also Christian?
The biggest question I would ask is whether the science of the rest of these folks brought them into any conflict with the Church at all. Apparently in cases where it did, folks were reasonably wary of the Church, but in cases like those involving Faraday, Maxwell, Plank, and Boyle, what conflict could have existed in any case?
Kelvin is a borderline case only because Bible inerrancy had not developed to the point of being anti-old age earth. Which of course brings us to actual biologists. Where is the biologists who claims that we ought not look beyond Genesis when studying the origins of life and species?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Davidjay, posted 04-12-2017 12:56 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 280 of 936 (805329)
04-17-2017 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Faith
04-17-2017 3:50 PM


Re: alleles/mutations?
his raises all kinds of questions in my mind. How can such "mutations" really be mutations if they specifically and pointedly do things that are SO beneficial to the people in this situation? How do they get selected? Even if what selection does is merely favor the reproduction of the best equipped/fittest individuals wouldn't getting such capacities established throughout the population cost an awful lot of (way too many) losses on the way to getting them established?
You have some great questions. Now how would you find out the answers to those question? Just having questions, particularly for a person who has yet to find the scientific paper that she was willing and able to read in detail, just identifies areas of ignorance that you need to have filled. So how would you go about doing that?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Faith, posted 04-17-2017 3:50 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 329 of 936 (805679)
04-20-2017 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by Faith
04-20-2017 4:14 AM


Sometimes an evolving line of animals, or I suppose also plants, will reach a point where it can no longer breed with other members of its species. This usually describes a condition of genetic mismatch due to decreased genetic diversity in an inbreeding population.
This belief would obviously affect biological inquiry. It also happens to be that pet theory that you have spent countless hours failing to convince anyone of, and for which there is no biological evidence.
At a minimum, if there is no evidence for this, ca-ca, then it cannot be taken as a postulate.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics is a result of the Fall, an expression of the Death that came to all creation.
What do you think that the second law of thermodynamics says, Faith? How do you think digestion worked prior to the Fall?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 4:14 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Pressie, posted 04-20-2017 7:10 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 339 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 2:52 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 338 of 936 (805745)
04-20-2017 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by Pressie
04-20-2017 7:10 AM


Hey, a lot of creationists claim that scientific laws only came to effect after the so-called Fall.
That's true. However creationists who pick on the second law of thermodynamics as an example are quite easily shown to be deluded by something other than the Bible which itself describes events that require a working second law.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Pressie, posted 04-20-2017 7:10 AM Pressie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 3:00 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 351 of 936 (805775)
04-20-2017 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Faith
04-20-2017 3:00 PM


Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what you are talking about?
You are the one who introduced the second law of thermodynamics to this topic, and the one who made bogus authoritative statements about it not existing before the fall. Why don't you explain the role of the second law in things like death, metabolism, digestion, breathing, etc. to the rest of us?
I don't have to enlighten "us". Most participants are well aware of the issues.
I will note that CMI specifically gives reasons not to use this particular argument. Maybe they know something you don't?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 3:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 380 of 936 (805912)
04-21-2017 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by CRR
04-21-2017 6:23 AM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
Consider a soap bubble and a ball of lead, both exactly the same size. Which will fall faster? The difference in weight here is enough to produce an observable difference. The soap bubble falls quite slowly. I have seen this
Yes, but the difference is not an effect of gravity, is it? The difference is instead due to forces which act in opposition to gravity.
And perhaps you are both wrong. The force of gravity is proportional to the mass, so the heavier mass experiences the greater force. However, larger masses have more inertia and thus accelerate less for a given force. The result is that the acceleration due to gravity for two different masses is the same.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by CRR, posted 04-21-2017 6:23 AM CRR has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 381 of 936 (805914)
04-21-2017 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Faith
04-20-2017 3:32 PM


Re: A creationist model in progress
Accuracy ISN'T my intent
Preach it sister. Word to the mother...

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 3:32 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 389 of 936 (805950)
04-21-2017 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by New Cat's Eye
04-21-2017 3:01 PM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
That would prevent growth. I've witnessed growing; the above cannot be correct.
Growing, and fetal development, etc. The second law is about the total change in entropy including all systems with which energy is exchanged, and not whether entropy in some particular object must increase or decrease. In this case, we have the sun to account for when we what to insist that any given process on earth must produce an increase in entropy.
Have a refrigerator in your house? Where do all of those low entropy ice cubes come from?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-21-2017 3:01 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-24-2017 11:55 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 390 of 936 (805951)
04-21-2017 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by Faith
04-20-2017 4:14 AM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
Entropy is a result of the Fall, an expression of the Death that came to all creation
That is just as clearly a bunch of nonsense. And it is not a matter of pedantry. You simply don't know what you are talking about.
Here is a simple question for you. Did plants die before the Fall?
Are you aware that the second law is a statement about entropy? If the second law existed, then so did entropy.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 4:14 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 7:46 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 392 of 936 (805955)
04-21-2017 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Faith
04-21-2017 7:46 PM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
There was no entropy before the Fall.
Were those non-dead plants digested? Did Adam derive energy from eating food?
Did water evaporate before the fall? Did time move forwards? Did the sun warm the earth?
Then, yes there was entropy before the fall. As is the case for most stuff that involves something higher than high school physical science, you simply have no clue what you are talking about. You've become a parody of your own self.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 7:46 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 402 of 936 (805975)
04-21-2017 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Faith
04-21-2017 7:46 PM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
Plants didn't die, they were eaten.
Just to demonstrate that you will say whatever is convenient to win an argument about something you have no clue about, I offer this Message 197 past post of yours:
Faith writes:
I AM convinced by the overall implication of the scripture verses I've put together, along with the general tenor of scripture as a whole, that there could not have been the death of any creature before the Fall (plants excepted for sure, and possibly insects and single-celled creatures excepted as well, but only possibly
Which is it, Faith? Do plants, after being eaten and digested by say, a lion, still live, or is it certain that plants did die before the fall?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 7:46 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 705 of 936 (810232)
05-25-2017 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 702 by CRR
05-25-2017 8:29 PM


Re: the word Evolution?
Unfortunately that can also be phrased as; I study evolution(i), I have observed evolution(ii), and believe evolution(iii) to be true; which can lead to equivocation.
Equivocations are not all that difficult to clear up in a conversation. If two folks recognize that they are not talking about the same thing, the honest thing to do is to stop equivocating and decide what the discussion is actually about.
Confusion regarding the relationship between the evolution of galaxies and the evolution involving the change in alleles in a population of wolves is generally not honest discussion.
On the other hand, confusion when using evolution to talk about the change in frequency of alleles in a herd of sheep, and using evolution to talk about speciation of herd animals over 1000s of generations may indeed be honest. But such confusion is easily resolved if the parties having the discussion actually mean to actually discuss.
After all, we've known that words sometimes have two meanings at least since 1971 or so.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 702 by CRR, posted 05-25-2017 8:29 PM CRR has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 724 of 936 (811071)
06-04-2017 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 723 by ringo
06-04-2017 2:53 PM


A lazy Creator. And an unimaginative one.
Unimaginative?
I've always had a problem with this kind of argument. Regardless of the method or technology involved, life on earth shows a huge amount of variation both in form and in strategies for survival and reproduction. What then should be made of claims that the final designs are all tediously based on DNA? Not much I think.
Lazy? And just what is the level of effort required to create life on an entire planet? Is it harder than tensor calculus?
Of course, the argument does accomplish the purpose of providing an irritant to a theist by casting aspersions on his deity. Perhaps that is the only real purpose of the argument.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 723 by ringo, posted 06-04-2017 2:53 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 726 by ringo, posted 06-05-2017 11:46 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 731 by CRR, posted 06-05-2017 6:05 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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