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Author Topic:   Debunking the Evolutionary God of 'Selection'
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 16 of 323 (806138)
04-23-2017 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by JonF
04-23-2017 9:25 AM


Re: Probability
Something near to half of them will come up heads, but the probability of any one specific outcome is 1/2 raised to the power of the number of trials.
I knew someone would quibble with that, I was trying to keep it simple - t's going to be 500 heads plus or minus a small number.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by JonF, posted 04-23-2017 9:25 AM JonF has not replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 17 of 323 (806139)
04-23-2017 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
04-22-2017 12:48 PM


Re: Mutations dont make zebras run faster
Magic mutations wont make a zebra run faster... its an illusion.
Magic mutations wont make a lion or lioness run faster or make a chateeh have the special running capabilities in a very COMPLEX backbone, eye combination that will help it catch prey.
Please read and study the CHEETAH THREAD.
Please study genetics before posting. Thanks

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

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Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 18 of 323 (806141)
04-23-2017 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Tangle
04-22-2017 2:02 PM


I heard the supposed moth evolution, maybe forty years ago.
Please study genetics, colour change is not evolution. Its dominant/recessive colour genes, just as humans have different skin colors when interbreeding among their own KIND.
Skin color is not evolution. Nor is interbreeding of dogs to bring out a characteristic, and a weaker breed, so that one trait can be amplified.
Understand breeding and variability within a KIND.
The Creator made variabiloity to give individuality etc.... to humans and differtent KINDS, these combinations make slight superficial changes not major changes or design changes. Humans are humans despite their slight changes.
SEE and study
Evolution is a racist doctrine....
Thanks
Yes, its sad thast evolutionists use these moths as their fundamental excuse for thinking moths become a different KIND.
PS) Also note that a KIND usually isolates and disregards or kills any of their kind that does not match their appearance, so as to keep the KIND uniform. They keep their identity if a minor change in colour etc takes place. They select the norm, the template
See and study wasps, bees etc..

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Tangle, posted 04-22-2017 2:02 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Tangle, posted 04-23-2017 10:24 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 19 of 323 (806142)
04-23-2017 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Porosity
04-22-2017 2:48 PM


There have been no beneficial mutations, thats a pipe dream of evolutionists. Explosions and radiation do not create positive changes that ever help a KIND or species.
And please please stop sughgesting a learned behaviour can be transmitted genetically. Nothing a person or animal does effects their DNA, all offfspring are the same. As with Adam and Eve so with animals etc..... they follow their DNA KIND.
Sexual cells differentiate early in development and stay in the gonads. Lightning bolts etc to the gonads, dont produce magically better individuals, lightning bolts destroy and incapicitate or stop reproduction at the very least.

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Porosity, posted 04-22-2017 2:48 PM Porosity has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Tangle, posted 04-23-2017 10:31 AM Davidjay has not replied
 Message 32 by Porosity, posted 04-23-2017 2:54 PM Davidjay has replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 20 of 323 (806143)
04-23-2017 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
04-22-2017 6:14 PM


Re: Probability
Youre probabilty wrong, matter of fact you are wrong, because there is no probability that there has ever been a magical beneficial mutation. All of evolution hinges on the supposed existence and proof of one magical lucky moment in time when one beneficial mutation took place. They are still trying to find one, and still trying to find a missing link.
But Yes, evolution is about probability, or suggesting by luck eventually a magic mutation would materialize out of their ashes of defeat and resurrect and verify their theory. Evolution is a luck and chance religion, but the faithful have faith and encourage one another with their mutual support.
Thanks for again stating that evolution is all about luck and chance and hoped for probability eventually, somehow, someway, some time given a billion trillion years of trying.

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 04-22-2017 6:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 21 of 323 (806146)
04-23-2017 10:11 AM


BACK TO THE TOPIC !
The topic is selection, sometimes called natural selection, as evolutionists do love to use semantics and double speak as if selection is natural. And they love to infer that NATURural is part of NATURE, or from the beginning, as they directly or indirectly worship MOTHER NATURE, as did their religious ancestors. Their are basically animists in their philosphy and religion.
Please read and reread this forum to see that evolutionists believe that laws were just here from the BEGINNING and did not evolve. Their theory of nonsense only starts after living things became living things. In other words they have a Creation Model, that all things were created in the BEGINNING, and that a Big Bang or Bog Explosion created all things, or an even wierder theory that this explosion was slow and gradual.
Anyway, the vast vast majority of evolutionists admit that mutations are non random, non directed and just sort of happen by accident every so often every few million years. (Forget recombination variability HERE as that is not a mutation but a recombination inbuilt genetic variability given by the Creator. All traits, adaptions, instincts, behaviours are given at CREATION)
So as Percy stated, he states in different ways and different times, that although mutations are at random, he says selction is not at random and is directed or is different than mutations because it is almost alive and deciding what so called magic beneficial mutation is selected.
Hmm.. wait a minute that is double speak...... that doesnt make sense, because one it assumes there are some beneficial mutations made by puck and chance, when that is not the case. Similiarly a life changing mutation (if one ever existed) by its very definition stays alive and is selected already when it so called magically comes into existence and stays alive.
Life chooses life........ Well Yes, of course, anything alive is alive.
And life will not choose a dead thing or a dead end thing, or a horribly mutated dying thing or deviant thing.
Natural selection weeds out any deformities and abnormalies. Predators by the Lords design basically are used to weed out the weak and the diseased, etc etc etc.... you evolutionists need to study biology. The normal and healthy and templated as the ORIGINAL, usually dont get selected by the Lords predators but the weak and deformed, the injured and the nonbenefical-mutated ones.
Selah, think about it, understand it, see it.
Natural selection culls the ABNORMAL ones........ that dont fit into the design of the Creator.
But thinking natural SELECTION is a God that selects and chooses, is a religious concept, evolutionists have made up to verify their religion. You cant divide up a mutational life changing -change into two categories. One they called random mutations the second they call natural selection. For with their semantics, they now pretend to have a non random 'alive and kicking and selecting' life force rather than their admitted dead and dying non random mutation cornerstone.
Please stick to this topic, rather than wandering all over with your evolutionary excuses from all kinds of wierd other excuses.
Stick to the topic.
Thanks

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Tangle, posted 04-23-2017 10:37 AM Davidjay has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 22 of 323 (806156)
04-23-2017 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Davidjay
04-23-2017 9:41 AM


Davidjay writes:
I heard the supposed moth evolution, maybe forty years ago.
Yes, it's a very famous example of natural selection. It was updated only a few months ago because the mutation that caused the colour change has now been found, identified and dated.
Please study genetics, colour change is not evolution. Its dominant/recessive colour genes, just as humans have different skin colors when interbreeding among their own KIND.
Please see above. The colour change was not due to the usual variability in the genotype, it was caused by a mutation.
But forget about that. Let's say that it was simple variation that caused the colour change. Can you accept that the birds caused the population to change colour by selecting the moths that were no longer camouflaged? There were only white moths then the environment changed and the black moths appeared and became dominant, then the environment changed again and the white moth became dominant again.
This thread is about natural selection, the moth shows how it works.
Yes, its sad thast evolutionists use these moths as their fundamental excuse for thinking moths become a different KIND.
The moth does not become a different 'kind', it's still a moth. This is a relatively small change a very short time ago. The example is to show you how natural selection has caused a change to the moth's population.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Davidjay, posted 04-23-2017 9:41 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 23 of 323 (806158)
04-23-2017 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Davidjay
04-23-2017 9:45 AM


Davidjay writes:
There have been no beneficial mutations, thats a pipe dream of evolutionists.
I've just shown you one David. A real live observed beneficial mutation. How do you deny this? Here's the paper if you need it, sadly it's behind a paywall but the abstract tells you all you really need to know.
quote:
Discovering the mutational events that fuel adaptation to environmental change remains an important challenge for evolutionary biology. The classroom example of a visible evolutionary response is industrial melanism in the peppered moth (Biston betularia): the replacement, during the Industrial Revolution, of the common pale typica form by a previously unknown black (carbonaria) form, driven by the interaction between bird predation and coal pollution1. The carbonaria locus has been coarsely localized to a 200-kilobase region, but the specific identity and nature of the sequence difference controlling the carbonaria—typica polymorphism, and the gene it influences, are unknown2. Here we show that the mutation event giving rise to industrial melanism in Britain was the insertion of a large, tandemly repeated, transposable element into the first intron of the gene cortex. Statistical inference based on the distribution of recombined carbonaria haplotypes indicates that this transposition event occurred around 1819, consistent with the historical record. We have begun to dissect the mode of action of the carbonaria transposable element by showing that it increases the abundance of a cortex transcript, the protein product of which plays an important role in cell-cycle regulation, during early wing disc development. Our findings fill a substantial knowledge gap in the iconic example of microevolutionary change, adding a further layer of insight into the mechanism of adaptation in response to natural selection. The discovery that the mutation itself is a transposable element will stimulate further debate about the importance of ‘jumping genes’ as a source of major phenotypic novelty3.
The industrial melanism mutation in British peppered moths is a transposable element | Nature

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Davidjay, posted 04-23-2017 9:45 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 24 of 323 (806159)
04-23-2017 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Davidjay
04-23-2017 10:11 AM


Re: BACK TO THE TOPIC !
Davidjay writes:
The topic is selection, sometimes called natural selection, as evolutionists do love to use semantics and double speak as if selection is natural. And they love to infer that NATURural is part of NATURE, or from the beginning, as they directly or indirectly worship MOTHER NATURE, as did their religious ancestors. Their are basically animists in their philosphy and religion.
David, it's called natural selection only to differentiate it from mam-made selection, ie breeding. The selection is being made by nature.
An example is the birds eating moths that are no longer camouflaged. It's a very straightforward idea that can be demonstrated and observed.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Davidjay, posted 04-23-2017 10:11 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Davidjay, posted 04-23-2017 11:26 AM Tangle has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 25 of 323 (806161)
04-23-2017 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Davidjay
04-22-2017 11:52 AM


On selection
Attempting to make sense out of your word salad is very difficult. But here is some information on selection.
We can generally graph a normal distribution as a bell-shaped curve (first graph). A normal population will have quite a range of variation in a wide number of traits, and a bell-shaped curve can be drawn for each.
If there is negative selection pressure on one of those traits, the left side of the graph (low performers) will be more effected than the middle or the right side. Over time this can cause the whole curve to shift to the right (second graph), reflecting population change due to selection pressure.
In a widespread population, some sub-populations may be more effected by particular selection pressures than others. In those cases the sub-populations will change more than the rest of the population, resulting in a bimodal curve (third graph). This can lead directly to speciation.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Davidjay, posted 04-22-2017 11:52 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Davidjay, posted 04-23-2017 11:36 AM Coyote has replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 26 of 323 (806163)
04-23-2017 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Tangle
04-23-2017 10:37 AM


Re: BACK TO THE TOPIC !
Yes, manipulative man made inbreeding, and inbreeding can cause superifical changes (and many negative ones), that even dumb evolutionists think is an example of mutational change. No, it is inbreeding a species, as with racism, as with dog breeding to bring out recessive traits in a popualtion, even though they are still humans and or ..... still dogs.
Amazingly they even have racists laws HERE in Canada, and surely elsewhere, that ensure an inbreeding culture. (Status Indians children must have status indian parents, In other words no intermarrying of natives with whites etc... as their children would lose all the advanatages of being native.)
Mixing or NON-RACISM develops strong species, whereas racism and inbreeding does not create a superior race or breed but a weaker one.
Please study and read.... Evolution is a racist doctrine. And help stop human inbreeding and racism. The cornerstone of evolution.
Tangle, again color change is not evolution, nor a mutational change of significance, its called VARIATION in colour....as life selects life, and the colour change makes them more hidden than
the other colours (Color is American spelling, colour is British/Canadain spelling)
Tangle your classic example cornerstone crumbles.
For yet again, study chameleons and how they supposedly mutated til they got the ability to blend into their background, was this by chance, by their brain power, or by selectivity, or by design.
An honest intelligent person has no problem deciding its by D******.
Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.
Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Tangle, posted 04-23-2017 10:37 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Tangle, posted 04-23-2017 3:03 PM Davidjay has not replied
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Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 27 of 323 (806164)
04-23-2017 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Coyote
04-23-2017 11:13 AM


Re: On selection
No, your evolutionary experts just stated categorically that populations do not branch out, and are equally evolved at any given time, and consequently the same genetically at a given time.
You are contradicting your experts HERE.
I realize, they were double speaking and trying to evade the obvious conclusion that evolution is a racist doctrine. Nevertheless to go further, you or they must make up your minds what your doctrine teaches...
It either is a branching out of a population making a new species, step by step, or it is NOT a branching out, and is not racist.
You say it is a branching out, to try or attempt to show evolution logic or proof, so get your experts HERE to change their posts on
Evolution is a racist doctrine.
You can not have it BOTH ways, and keep changing your doctrine.
Your congregation has to speak the same thing and have the same principles. Choose a leader or preacher, and have him/her state your principles and be consistent.
Then Ill destroy your graphs from there.
Thanks.
PST... Its so easy to get evolutionists to get confused, frustrated and contradictory. I mean how can lack of design or intelligence ever dfeat intelligence and design.

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Coyote, posted 04-23-2017 11:13 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Coyote, posted 04-23-2017 11:49 AM Davidjay has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 28 of 323 (806168)
04-23-2017 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Davidjay
04-23-2017 11:36 AM


Re: On selection
No, your evolutionary experts just stated categorically that populations do not branch out, and are equally evolved at any given time, and consequently the same genetically at a given time.
You are contradicting your experts HERE.
Bullshit. Research "ring species" and you'll see examples of this.
I realize, they were double speaking and trying to evade the obvious conclusion that evolution is a racist doctrine. Nevertheless to go further, you or they must make up your minds what your doctrine teaches...
It either is a branching out of a population making a new species, step by step, or it is NOT a branching out, and is not racist.
You say it is a branching out, to try or attempt to show evolution logic or proof, so get your experts HERE to change their posts on
Evolution is a racist doctrine.
You can not have it BOTH ways, and keep changing your doctrine.
Your congregation has to speak the same thing and have the same principles. Choose a leader or preacher, and have him/her state your principles and be consistent.
Then Ill destroy your graphs from there.
More word salad. If you had as much logic, reason, and evidence as you have overweening arrogance you might get somewhere.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Davidjay, posted 04-23-2017 11:36 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Davidjay, posted 04-23-2017 11:58 AM Coyote has replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 29 of 323 (806172)
04-23-2017 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Coyote
04-23-2017 11:49 AM


Re: On selection
Coyote, by not answering or studying you lose the argument and put your evolutionary side at further risk.
Back to the topic, as we are suppose to bring something to the table with each post, rather than you saying nothing and bringing nothing to the communal lunch. Cook up something Coyote, at least try, put in some time and effort, rather than complaint complaint, denial denial.
Life selecting life is redunadant, and is part of life, not two separate processes. If a so called mutation lives, its the mutation that so called is alive and viable doesnt need selection, it just lives.
But of course we know there are no beneficial mutations that have ever existed that lived and created a new species. Radiation causes changes, but never have they ever changed a species for the better, or make them more survive-able. Usually any mutation that does happen are exterminated in one generation. Variability of course happens as designed by the ever loving spice of life God also called the Creator.
So come on evolutionists select some words that defend your non random slection process.
Selection is life, so called life changing mutations, mystically called benefeical mutations

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Coyote, posted 04-23-2017 11:49 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Coyote, posted 04-23-2017 12:03 PM Davidjay has not replied
 Message 34 by RAZD, posted 04-23-2017 3:13 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 30 of 323 (806175)
04-23-2017 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Davidjay
04-23-2017 11:58 AM


Re: On selection
Coyote, by not answering or studying you lose the argument and put your evolutionary side at further risk.
When you respond to my post in a meaningful way you'll get an answer.
Your claims are nonsense, and most posts are a combination of preaching and word salad.
Perhaps you can get away with such in your bible college or wherever you preach, but not here.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Davidjay, posted 04-23-2017 11:58 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
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