Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 601 of 716 (806931)
04-29-2017 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 577 by Faith
04-28-2017 9:34 PM


Re: The Star: It's All Natural Astronomical Phenomena
Faith writes:
So maybe they weren't Jewish.
If they weren't Jewish, why would they travel hundreds of miles to see the new king of the Jews? Would you travel halfway around the world to see the new king of Botswana?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 577 by Faith, posted 04-28-2017 9:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 602 by Davidjay, posted 04-29-2017 11:41 AM ringo has replied
 Message 607 by Faith, posted 04-29-2017 3:04 PM ringo has replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2329 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 602 of 716 (806935)
04-29-2017 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 601 by ringo
04-29-2017 11:36 AM


Re: The Star: It's All Natural Astronomical Phenomena
Because the Messiah was the Messiah of all the Universe and not a mere country.
SEE Isiah 53 thread
SEE Evolution is a racist thread
Jesus was the Creator was God, and as such sees hearts not tribes, not races, not nationalities.
Learn Ringo Learn......
The stars show the Messiah of all not a Messiah for some.

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by ringo, posted 04-29-2017 11:36 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 603 by ringo, posted 04-29-2017 11:50 AM Davidjay has not replied
 Message 605 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-29-2017 12:07 PM Davidjay has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 603 of 716 (806936)
04-29-2017 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 602 by Davidjay
04-29-2017 11:41 AM


Re: The Star: It's All Natural Astronomical Phenomena
Davidjay writes:
Because the Messiah was the Messiah of all the Universe and not a mere country.
That's not how the magi described Jesus. The called him King of the Jews, not Messiah of the Universe. The Jews never thought of their Messiah as Messiah of the Universe. That's a later Christian invention.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Davidjay, posted 04-29-2017 11:41 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 604 of 716 (806937)
04-29-2017 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 599 by Davidjay
04-29-2017 11:33 AM


Re: The Star: Symbols and Meanings
quote:
PaulK, learn to differentiate and be exact
Exact like this statement, written in 2004 ?
We are 7 years past that time, and we still have 7 more years to go before the End according to the very specific and exact timeframe of Daniel and John the revelator and all the Lord’s Prophets
The "exact" prophecies showed the "End" in 2011 then. Funny how that didn't happen
Message 74
I realise that you creationists like to try and do down your opponents - and without any regard for the truth. But the truth will still win, and you will lose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by Davidjay, posted 04-29-2017 11:33 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 605 of 716 (806939)
04-29-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by Davidjay
04-29-2017 11:41 AM


DJJ's Mathturbation
So, David, according to your math the Second Coming was in 1997, the End was in 2011, and the Great Tribulation started in 2012.
Why did no-one notice?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Davidjay, posted 04-29-2017 11:41 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 606 by vimesey, posted 04-29-2017 1:34 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 611 by Davidjay, posted 04-29-2017 9:47 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(2)
Message 606 of 716 (806942)
04-29-2017 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 605 by Dr Adequate
04-29-2017 12:07 PM


Re: DJJ's Mathturbation
There was great tribulation in Italy when they lost the final of Euro 2012 - maybe that was it ?

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-29-2017 12:07 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 613 by Davidjay, posted 04-29-2017 11:14 PM vimesey has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 607 of 716 (806945)
04-29-2017 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 601 by ringo
04-29-2017 11:36 AM


Re: The Star: It's All Natural Astronomical Phenomena
If they weren't Jewish the signs they saw must have told them this was far more than the king of a tribe, they would have told them this was God in the flesh. That's what their coming to worship him implies.
After the discussion about Jupiter passing Regulus three times I think if they'd seen that sign that could be how they recognized the extraordinary greatness of this king. And they'd have known He was to be a King of the Jews because that sign appeared in the sign of the tribe of Judah (however if so that again makes it possible they were Jewish).
If they were Jewish you are right they would have known the prophecies, but it's not clear that they were asking where the child was to be born, but where Bethlehem was, which they wouldn't have known if they'd never been to Judea before.
Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
So although I agreed that they should have gone straight to Bethlehem, when I reread the passage it seems they just wanted to know how to get there, not where the child was to be born.
But either way they knew this king was a king to be worshiped as God, not on the level of the king of Botswana. What signs revealed this to them aren't all that clear to us, but since they came to worship him we know they knew He was no ordinary king.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by ringo, posted 04-29-2017 11:36 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 643 by ringo, posted 04-30-2017 2:17 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 608 of 716 (806946)
04-29-2017 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by PaulK
04-29-2017 10:57 AM


Re: The Star: Common Occurrences Together Become Rare
If you haven't figured it out yet, my tears were because of the touching meaning I now see in Jupiter's passing of Regulus three times. Fred Larson read it as "crowning" Regulus, but I think from what you quoted it's more likely a sign of the overthrowing of the king, the passes signifying the forsaking of him by God the Father (My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?), a pushing away, a rejection, at the same time an anointing of him as king.
So this would have been the Annunciation of the birth of this king to be forsaken by the Father, occurring in the sign of the Lion of Judah just before the rising of the virgin. (The new moon under her feet, which was the beginning of the Jewish New Year, is also a picture of her being pregnant with brand new life, brand new because it's a new moon, at her feet because that is a common way scripture describes the birth of a child, same with men:
Genesis 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
ABE: When the blood moon rises on the day of the crucifixion also at the feet of the sign of Virgo, it implies the death of her son. (And I think "she" is israel as much as she is Mary.) /ABE
So I think Larson was right that this (Rosh Hashana) was the Annunciation or day of conception, and that does make the Jupiter-Venus conjunction nine months later the time of Jesus' birth.
The meanings are so obvious there is no way Larson just made them up. Really, anyone thinking biblically about these signs would see Leo as the Lion of Judah, Virgo as the virgin mother, Jupiter and Regulus as a relationship between God the Father and another king and so on. You and others keep saying there are other interpretations, I don't see any for a Bible believer.
And of course I know how the constellations follow one another. The fact that Virgo always rises after Leo isn't in itself important, it's the activity of Jupiter and Regulus going on in the sign of the lion of Judah, followed by the rising of Virgo looking exactly identical to the woman in Revelation 12. Virgo is always going to rise "clothed with the sun" at that time of year, but always with the crescent moon at her feet on Rosh Hashana? Probably not. When you put ALL the clues together you get a unique event.
I'm wondering now just how frequent all these phenomena are. Jupiter passing Regulus THREE TIMES? How is that even possible? But there it is in the Astronomy program.
Same with the crucifixion. Blood moons are fairly frequent events, though probably not so frequent rising at the feet of Virgo, and even less frequent also occurring at three in the afternoon (which is when Jesus died on the cross). And the day itself had to fit a collection of clues, such as Nisan 14, the Day of Preparation, falling on a Friday. No matter how common each clue is in isolation, together they amount to something rare.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : Bunch of little corrections for clarity. Sorry

This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by PaulK, posted 04-29-2017 10:57 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 609 by PaulK, posted 04-29-2017 4:19 PM Faith has replied
 Message 610 by NoNukes, posted 04-29-2017 5:44 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 609 of 716 (806947)
04-29-2017 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 608 by Faith
04-29-2017 3:33 PM


Re: The Star: Common Occurrences Together Become Rare
quote:
If you haven't figured it out yet, my tears were because of the touching meaning I now see in Jupiter's passing of Regulus three times. Fred Larson read it as "crowning" Regulus, but I think from what you quoted it's more likely a sign of the overthrowing of the king, the passes signifying the forsaking of him by God the Father (My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?), a pushing away, a rejection, at the same time an anointing of him as king.
Are you going to move the crucifixion to 2 BC then ? and let us be honest, Jesus never got to be a King on Earth, had no rule to be overthrown.
quote:
The meanings are so obvious there is no way Larson just made them up. Really, anyone thinking biblically about these signs would see Leo as the Lion of Judah, Virgo as the virgin mother, Jupiter and Regulus as a relationship between God the Father and another king and so on. You and others keep saying there are other interpretations, I don't see any for a Bible believer.
I'm sure you could find others if they were convenient for you. But let us not forget that the supposed Magi were not "Bible believers", and lived before any of the New Testament was even written.
quote:
And of course I know how the constellations follow one another. The fact that Virgo always rises after Leo isn't in itself important, it's the activity of Jupiter and Regulus going on in the sign of the lion of Judah, followed by the rising of Virgo looking exactly identical to the woman in Revelation 12. Virgo is always going to rise "clothed with the sun" at that time of year, but always with the crescent moon at her feet on Rosh Hashana? Probably not. When you put ALL the clues together you get a unique event.
Leo is not "the" sign of Judah - it isn't even one of the several proposed signs of Judah, which obviously leaves you plenty of other options. Rosh Hashanah is always held on a new moon, and the new moon is in line with the sun, so the "crescent moon at her feet" at Rosh Hashanah would also be a common event, I think.
quote:
Same with the crucifixion. Blood moons are fairly frequent events, though probably not so frequent rising at the feet of Virgo, and even less frequent also occurring at three in the afternoon (which is when Jesus died on the cross). And the day itself had to fit a collection of clues, such as Nisan 14, the Day of Preparation, falling on a Friday. No matter how common each clue is in isolation, together they amount to something rare.
Just by chance Nisan 14 falling on a Friday ought to be once in seven. And isn't it a bit awkward that the "blood moon" would not have risen by 3:00 pm ? Wouldn't it be a better sign if the totality actually occurred while the moon was visible from Jerusalem ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by Faith, posted 04-29-2017 3:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 616 by Faith, posted 04-29-2017 11:39 PM PaulK has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 610 of 716 (806948)
04-29-2017 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 608 by Faith
04-29-2017 3:33 PM


Re: The Star: Common Occurrences Together Become Rare
Really, anyone thinking biblically about these signs would see Leo as the Lion of Judah, Virgo as the virgin mother, Jupiter and Regulus as a relationship between God the Father and another king and so on. You and others keep saying there are other interpretations, I don't see any for a Bible believer.
No, folks thinking Biblically would not necessarily see it that way. The association of a group of stars being a lion is completely non-Biblical. It is from astrology dating back thousands of years probably to ancient Sumeria. Perhaps a more accurate statement is that folks included to being impressed with astrology might be attracted to your interpretation. Maybe a Chaldean?
Regulus is indeed known as the "King Star" but for no good reason other than a bunch of ancient, folks (Babylonians, Sumerians, Greeks) made that association. Jupiter as the "king" of the solar system, given that the solar system actually is centered around the sun, is dubious, but at least Jupiter is the largest planet. But isn't the kingly-ness of Jupiter based on Greek mythology?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by Faith, posted 04-29-2017 3:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 612 by Davidjay, posted 04-29-2017 9:51 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 617 by Faith, posted 04-30-2017 12:26 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2329 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 611 of 716 (806949)
04-29-2017 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 605 by Dr Adequate
04-29-2017 12:07 PM


Re: Hindsight after the Covenant is signed
No, I answered that already.
Please study, as prophecy is exact and we just have to get it exactly right.. Even though the last one can be deduced from hindsight and acted on before the middle of the Last 7 Years.
From 2HindsightPropheticEvents
2 Easy Hindsight Prophetic Events
Let me first say prophecy was given by past prophets so the end time prophets would have a basis, a standard from which to
start so they can finnish. We can not scripturally say, all prophets are evil and false. The Lord shall raise up prophets in the End
Time, thinking other wise would surely make us false. So try the prophets and let them speak. ... forget this labeling and
name calling and just discuss prophecy and precepts.
Therefore let me share with you the Lord's easy HINDSIGHT prophetic markers, that unaware Christians can finnally see and
and recognize that will finnally get them moving away from trust in nationalism, church, politics, militaries etc. etc...
ONE.
Simple straightforward, the COVENANT is signed by TEN COUNTRIES. Come on nothing can be more blatant than the world
stage in ten countries signing the Covenant. That is such an easy basic event, that even the dumbest of dumb can NOT miss. Its in
Daniel and repeated in Revelation. It will take zero discernment to read about it in the news, and see it on TV. I say it takes the
Iranian war to melt them together into compliance.. .but whatever, first there has to be a COVENANT.
TWO
Secondly, according to the days of Daniel seven months later after the Covenant signing, the Jewish priesthood will START TO
SACRIFICE before their Temple, the 3rd temple. This can only be done after a PEACE has been established and a Covenant of
the militaries and governments signed and approved.
So then Christian brethren, all Christians better get busy because the written in stone timeline of the Last 7 years has started.
Forget needing to know when the Lord is coming back, for what you have to determine THEN, in the early years after the
SIGNING and SACRIFICING is when the Whore gets destroyed and your positioning as whether you are serving the Lord. For
you need to have been serving the Lord and figure out through prayer whether you will run to so called safe havens or whether
you GATHER as I would suggest, or whether you do nothing and just close your eyes.
The decisions are yours. But the first TWO events of End Time prophecy are extremely easy to discern.... They haven't
happenned so look for this TWO major MAJOR events.
IHS
David
PS ) Isn't it amazing how simple the Lord made prophecy so we could even
have hindsight rather than foresight on the first 2 major events.
David Jay Jordan

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-29-2017 12:07 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 615 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-29-2017 11:29 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2329 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 612 of 716 (806950)
04-29-2017 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 610 by NoNukes
04-29-2017 5:44 PM


Re: The Star: Common Occurrences Together Become Rare
No nukes, the Lord created the sdtar groupings and as you will have read by now, the Earth is a very special place, for its where the Messiah of the Universe was born, lifed and died for all.
Faith and I agreed on the Witness in the Stars by Bullinger.
Study and Read it and know the signs in the sky.
Know about Regulus, know about the sweet influences of Leides as written about in Job etc etc etc etc etc...
Learn dont try and tell Christians about the Mesiah of the Universe and why the stars didn;t show His COMING, but how the stars obviously tell tell of His Coming.
But only the wise saw it, and only the humble shepeherds came to HIm, and only the searching thereafter have searched for and found HIM.
Jesus created the stars, whether angelic or whether heavenly bodies, again read Genesis, or go out in the starry starry nights and marvel at the glory of God.

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 610 by NoNukes, posted 04-29-2017 5:44 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 618 by NoNukes, posted 04-30-2017 1:56 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2329 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 613 of 716 (806962)
04-29-2017 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 606 by vimesey
04-29-2017 1:34 PM


Re: DJJ's Mathturbation
Vim writes as he lights up another cigar.."Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely wrong, thats unscientific, thats anti-bible... thats a delusion of the lazy and the cowardly !!
Thats what damnable teachers and preachers tell their congregations. They say dont search, dont study, dont figure out things, just sit as a bunch of logs ina pew, or a bunch of luck and chancers in your college seats.
THE LORD says and said.
Seek and ye shall find.
Knock and the door shall be opened
Enoch found out, Moses found out, Daniel found out, the great Christian Scientists found out.
Secrets found out increase faith, and never weaken it. Truths always increase faith.
The Lord wants us to build our faith and build our minds and use our minds thats why He gave us our MINDS !!!
Stop preaching laziness and nothing can be figured out delusions. No wonder evolutionists become evolutionists, all they have to knwo is two words and they know all of evolution...luck and chance.
Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.
Lets repeat that truth... 2It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.
Yes, the Lord hid these things slightly, but it the glory of kings and researchers to find it out. There is NOTHING that is hid that shall not be revealed.
So start studying and searching people instead of being so dam lazy and lethargic and making excuse after excuse.
Its not conceit to know the Lord has answers, its faith and answering questions step by step or precpt by precept.
QUESTION ANSWERED
Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 606 by vimesey, posted 04-29-2017 1:34 PM vimesey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 614 by Coyote, posted 04-29-2017 11:21 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 614 of 716 (806963)
04-29-2017 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 613 by Davidjay
04-29-2017 11:14 PM


Re: DJJ's Mathturbation
Absolutely wrong, thats unscientific, thats anti-bible...
Unscientific? Anti-bible?
The problem you have is that scientific real-world evidence disproves many biblical claims. Young earth and global flood ca. 4350 years ago are just two. And talking snakes? Hah!
I note yet again that you have refused to respond to the evidence I presented showing--from my own archaeological research--that there was no flood about 4350 years ago.
Duck, dodge and weave!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 613 by Davidjay, posted 04-29-2017 11:14 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 615 of 716 (806965)
04-29-2017 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 611 by Davidjay
04-29-2017 9:47 PM


Re: Hindsight after the Covenant is signed
No, I answered that already.
No you didn't, you goddamned liar.
Answer the question.
According to your math the Second Coming was in 1997, the End was in 2011, and the Great Tribulation started in 2012.
Why did no-one notice?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 611 by Davidjay, posted 04-29-2017 9:47 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024