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Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Taq
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Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 31 of 1311 (807336)
05-02-2017 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Percy
05-02-2017 8:42 AM


Percy writes:
. . . but while much in biology requires evolution to make sense, much does not. Biology is a huge field.
A good "counterexample" might be specific observations in physiology. For example, mitochondria store chemical energy by creating a proton gradient across a membrane which involves the metabolism of simple sugars. Evolution doesn't explain why an ATP can be produced when a proton moves from high concentration to low concentration through a membrane bound protein. Thermodynamics does a great job of explaining this process, but evolution not so much.

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Dredge
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Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 32 of 1311 (807405)
05-03-2017 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Chiroptera
04-27-2017 9:12 AM


Was biology even a science ... before Darwin?
I still don't understand what Darwin did to advance biology. Are you saying that without him, biologists would not be aware, for example, that the interplay between mutations and natural selection can produce heritable changes in a population? Animal and plant breeders had been aware of such things for thousands of years.
Without Darwin, would biologists have discovered drift, lateral gene transfer, recombination, etc, etc? Of course they would have.
If Darwin is responsible for nothing more than coming up with the theory that all life evolved from a common ancestor, then he has not contributed anything at all to the advancement of biology - all he's done is come up witha useless idea that is, at best, a curiosity of history. I mean, of what practical use is it to belief that whales evolved from some deer-like creature over a period of 50 million years? Believing in the Tooth Fairy is more useful than that - at least a little money can be made (I used to get five cents per tooth)!
Could it be that Charles Darwin is the most over-rated figure in the history of mankind?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-03-2017 1:50 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 46 by Taq, posted 05-03-2017 10:55 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 05-03-2017 4:49 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 33 of 1311 (807415)
05-03-2017 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Dredge
05-03-2017 12:49 AM


I still don't understand what Darwin did to advance biology.
No, you don't.
Are you saying that without him, biologists would not be aware, for example, that the interplay between mutations and natural selection can produce heritable changes in a population? Animal and plant breeders had been aware of such things for thousands of years.
No, they hadn't really understood it. Natural selection was seen as exerting only conservative pressures.
Without Darwin, would biologists have discovered drift, lateral gene transfer, recombination, etc, etc? Of course they would have.
No-one said otherwise.
If Darwin is responsible for nothing more than coming up with the theory that all life evolved from a common ancestor, then he has not contributed anything at all to the advancement of biology - all he's done is come up with a useless idea that is, at best, a curiosity of history. I mean, of what practical use is it to belief that whales evolved from some deer-like creature over a period of 50 million years?
No-one claimed that making sense of biology is invariably of practical use, just that one can't make sense of it except in the light of evolution.

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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 34 of 1311 (807426)
05-03-2017 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Dr Adequate
05-03-2017 1:50 AM


except in the light of evolution
What is "evolution"?

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 Message 33 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-03-2017 1:50 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 35 of 1311 (807428)
05-03-2017 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Dredge
05-03-2017 2:33 AM


What is "evolution"?
Heritable change. We've been through this.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 50 by Astrophile, posted 05-03-2017 6:22 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dredge
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Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 36 of 1311 (807430)
05-03-2017 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Dr Adequate
05-03-2017 2:55 AM


Yes, sorry; your defintion of evolution is heritable change in a population. So what's this got to do Darwin? Heritable changes in a population has been a known fact for thousands of years.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 43 by JonF, posted 05-03-2017 10:01 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 47 by Taq, posted 05-03-2017 10:58 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 37 of 1311 (807431)
05-03-2017 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Dredge
05-03-2017 3:04 AM


Yes, sorry; your defintion of evolution is heritable change in a population. So what's this got to do Darwin? Heritable changes in a population has been a known fact for thousands of years.
But people barely knew anything about it.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dredge
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Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 38 of 1311 (807432)
05-03-2017 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dr Adequate
05-03-2017 3:17 AM


People were clearly already well aware of the mechanism of natural/artificial selection and its effect on a popularion, so what did Darwin come up with that advanced knowledge of "evolution" (ie, heritable changes on a population)?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-03-2017 3:28 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 44 by JonF, posted 05-03-2017 10:05 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 45 by Coyote, posted 05-03-2017 10:16 AM Dredge has replied
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 39 of 1311 (807433)
05-03-2017 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dredge
05-03-2017 3:27 AM


If I said that nothing in the dynamics of the Solar System made sense except in the light of gravity, and acclaimed Newton as a brilliant scientist, would you reply: "So what's this got to do with Newton? Gravity has been a known fact for thousands of years."

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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 40 of 1311 (807434)
05-03-2017 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dr Adequate
05-03-2017 3:28 AM


Your straw man doesn't answer my question.

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 Message 39 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-03-2017 3:28 AM Dr Adequate has replied

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 41 of 1311 (807435)
05-03-2017 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Dredge
05-03-2017 3:43 AM


Your straw man doesn't answer my question.
You should really find out what "straw man" means --- unless it is your mission in life to make a damn fool of yourself, in which case please do carry on as you are.
If there is still something which, having read my posts, you don't understand, or wish to pretend not to understand, perhaps you could ask me politely to explain it to you.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 42 of 1311 (807437)
05-03-2017 4:06 AM


No?
Goodnight then.

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(2)
Message 43 of 1311 (807473)
05-03-2017 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Dredge
05-03-2017 3:04 AM


Yes, sorry; your defintion of evolution is heritable change in a population. So what's this got to do Darwin? Heritable changes in a population has been a known fact for thousands of years.
Yep. Millennia, even.
Darwin proposed a theory of how it happened.
A distinction which you appear to be unable to comprehend.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 44 of 1311 (807474)
05-03-2017 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dredge
05-03-2017 3:27 AM


People were clearly already well aware of the mechanism of natural/artificial selection and its effect on a popularion, so what did Darwin come up with that advanced knowledge of "evolution" (ie, heritable changes on a population)?
They were not already well aware that the process, when continued for long periods of time, resulted in wildly different species.
Darwin figured it out and called his book "Origin of Species". It was about how different species originated; i.e. how they came to be different species..
Edited by Admin, : Fix use of bold dBCode.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 45 of 1311 (807476)
05-03-2017 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dredge
05-03-2017 3:27 AM


Science and theories
People were clearly already well aware of the mechanism of natural/artificial selection and its effect on a popularion, so what did Darwin come up with that advanced knowledge of "evolution" (ie, heritable changes on a population)?
Piling up facts is not science -- science is facts-and-theories. Facts alone have limited use and lack meaning: a valid theory organizes them into far greater usefulness.
Robert A. Heinlein
Creationists can't accept the results of science when they conflict with their religious beliefs, so some creationists endlessly pick at the edges of science in an attempt to overturn or discredit the results. That seems to be what's going on in this thread.
But to discredit a scientific theory requires evidence...

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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