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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 682 of 716 (807374)
05-02-2017 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 679 by PaulK
05-02-2017 1:17 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
We know what the woman of Rev 12 means without the astrology, that's not a problem. We know this is a passage about the birth of Christ. Why it is also an image of Virgo I don't know but it appears to be exactly that. I can't deny the Virgo image is actually there myself. Why we would even need images in the heavens to tell the story of Christ I don't know, but for some reason there seem to be such images there. And I'm speaking very conservatively since I only know of the few Larson seems to have found. I agree with anyone who thinks the whole thing is very odd in the biblical context and very unexpected, but I have to assume there is a reason for it we'll eventually understand.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 687 of 716 (807442)
05-03-2017 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 685 by Theodoric
05-02-2017 6:14 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Can you provide the historical evidence for this neat little fantasy?
Absolutely the best, the most excellent, the most trustworthy:
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
-- Revelation 1:9

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 690 of 716 (807535)
05-03-2017 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 689 by ringo
05-03-2017 3:18 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Fiction does try to sound like truth you know. Moby Dick fooled you didn't it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 693 of 716 (807544)
05-03-2017 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 692 by PaulK
05-03-2017 5:32 PM


Re: Summing up Larson
Have you seen ANY of the video?
Everything you've said here is a million miles from the video
Or anything I was trying to say for that matter.
/
/
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 694 of 716 (807555)
05-03-2017 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 691 by ringo
05-03-2017 4:49 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Where do you get your arrogance? Millions upon millions know that John is a real person who wrote Revelation and four other books of the Bible. A lot of people also know that Melville wrote fiction. How dare you claim otherwise?

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 699 of 716 (807606)
05-04-2017 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 693 by Faith
05-03-2017 5:54 PM


Re: Summing up Larson
I have some questions for Larson myself. I don't know why he started the astronomy presentation with Jupiter and Regulus. I want to know what led him there in the first place. He had said something about the planets being possible candidates for the star, Jupiter in particular, but the conjunctions with Regulus aren't about the star. I think he recognized it's the first part of the drama so should be presented first, but that isn't the place to start with people who need to follow his own searching process to get to that point.
When he then shows the constellations, that Jupiter and Regulus are doing their "starry dance" in the sign of Leo, and then especially when he shows Virgo rising behind Leo "clothed with the sun and the moon beneath her feet" I'm convinced he's found something worth thinking about, but I'd still rather know how he got there, how did he choose September of 3BC in the first place? The star isn't there after all. Even though he suggests it could be the birth of Christ, where is the star? The idea that it's the Annunciation gains weight when he finds the bright conjunction of Jupiter with Venus nine months later, which of course has to take into account the meaning of those two planets as well.
I want to see the dates more clearly too. When did Jupiter start passing Regulus, what was the date? How long did the three passes take? Did they lead right up to Rosh Hashana or overlap it or what?
I don't think he started out looking for astrological meanings, but as soon as these things show up on the program there is no way to ignore their astrological meanings. And I don't see how they could just be dismissed as coincidences because there is too much there. People who think that have no idea that the number of variations, permutations and combinations, is far beyond any such possibility; or that such correspondences could just be made up -- aren't taking into account that these objects in the sky have traditional fixed meanings. But the most striking one in any case is the fact that the Virgo image is exactly what John saw. (The twelve stars on her head don't have to be part of the constellation for this basic fact to be true; in John's vision they identify her as Israel or daughter of Israel, or even may refer to the Zodiac.
The image itself of sun and moon in Virgo, which traditionally represents a woman, in the particular positions described by John, is all by itself an undeniable connection between the Bible and the stars. Far beyond any possibility of coincidence. Staggering really. And I do mean "undeniable." And its rising on Rosh Hashana adds MUCH weight to its connection with Israel. (Would John have known anything about the constellations: About the position of Virgo at Rosh Hashana? I'd like to know. Jewish law certainly forbids astrology, but prophecy refers to signs in the sky and even commands knowledge of them. So if these are such signs then they aren't the forbidden astrology; but if they are the forbidden astrology, what are the signs in the sky?
Even though Larson finds the bright Jupiter-Venus conjunction nine months later he is still not sure if it's Christ's birth date or the previous date is, where there is no appearance of anything that could be the star.
Then I'd like to know how long that conjunction lasted. If it's what the Magi saw in Babylon how did they know it was about the birth of a Jewish king? Since the conjunction wouldn't last long enough to be their guide to Bethlehem, why doesn't Larson talk about its being the much less bright Jupiter alone they follow?
Then they arrive in Bethlehem six months after the appearance of the bright conjunction, so Jesus would have been six months old. At that age would he have been referred to by the Greek term that usually means a child of toddler age, which he is called in scripture at the time of their visit? Could be, but that wasn't made clear. It's interesting that Jupiter came to its stop before turning retrograde on December 25th but that needs more discussion of details to be sure of it.
I think it's very striking when the blood moon rises after the crucifixion at the feet of the constellation Virgo. And touching. I would like to know exactly what time it rose though.
I don't think any of these questions discredit the study, I would imagine they would raise issues that would leave most audiences frustrated, but that if they were carefully answered they might add weight to Larson's conclusions.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 693 by Faith, posted 05-03-2017 5:54 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 709 of 716 (807682)
05-04-2017 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 706 by PaulK
05-04-2017 5:03 PM


Re: Summing up Larson
I think that it is quite clear that Larson assumes that the star story was at least based on actual events and went looking for events that seemed to match.
That much is true, yes, but I doubt when he started out he had any more expectation than that he was looking for a bright star to identify Jesus' birth, which would have been event enough at that point.
Thus he found the conjunction of Jupiter with Regulus, but preferred the later conjunction with Venus.
The first wasn't bright enough to be the star, isn't that the idea?
I want to see the dates more clearly too. When did Jupiter start passing Regulus, what was the date? How long did the three passes take? Did they lead right up to Rosh Hashana or overlap it or what?
Certainly Larson should provide that information- I guess that the problem with a video of a live talk is that sort of detail tends to be omitted. There are good reasons for preferring written sources.
Unfortunately his website isn't more informative on those points. He does provide more information about dating the crucifixion which looks interesting but I haven't spent time reading it yet.
I don't think he started out looking for astrological meanings...
I think that he did and he should have -
Well, I don't think he knew that's what they were.
but he should have done a better job of it. An astrological element is all but explicit in Matthew.
A bright star that stands for the birth of a king, of course, but I hadn't appreciated that fact either.
But the most striking one in any case is the fact that the Virgo image is exactly what John saw
Except that it looks like it isn't. The "crowned with twelve stars" seems contrived for a start. And as I pointed out it doesn't look like the chapter is even mostly astrological symbolism so it may be coincidence.
The image itself of Virgo with the sun and moon as described is quite enough. I'm not going to continue this argument.
And its rising on Rosh Hashana adds MUCH weight to its connection with Israel. (Would John have known anything about the constellations: About the position of Virgo at Rosh Hashana?
It's not something that would be obscure. However there is nothing in the text of Revelation 12 that seems to suggest a connection with Rosh Hashanah, so the suggestion that it is important is certainly questionable.
Since that's the only time Virgo would be "clothed in the sun and with the moon at her feet" it has to be important. It implies all sorts of interesting things about the place of Israel in God's plan of redemption.
Then I'd like to know how long that conjunction lasted. If it's what the Magi saw in Babylon how did they know it was about the birth of a Jewish king? Since the conjunction wouldn't last long enough to be their guide to Bethlehem, why doesn't Larson talk about its being the much less bright Jupiter alone they follow?
The answer seems to be that they would not have known. This is why I point out that Larson's astrological interpretation seems to be his invention.
Not following you.
I think it's very striking when the blood moon rises after the crucifixion at the feet of the constellation Virgo. And touching. I would like to know exactly what time it rose though.
Apparently it would not have been very striking in Jerusalem, with the eclipse ending before it became visible. Larson thinks otherwise, and even assumes that it would have been impressive which I think is hardly true even if the last moments are just about visible on the horizon.
It's a question of timing. Maybe he got something wrong about that.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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