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Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 856 of 1006 (807322)
05-02-2017 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 853 by Dredge
05-02-2017 2:38 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
I don't think you can - therefore no one can prove that their morality is superior to anyone else's. You can hold that opinion that genocide is immoral, for example, but you can't prove that it's immoral. That why an objective, universal code of morality is needed - but only God can provide an objective, universal code of morality.
How can he do that?
Regardless of what laws a society comes up with, an atheist can choose to ignore them it do whatever he thinks he can get away with. A Christian who fears God doesn't enjoy this freedom, as he believes that all his deeds will be judged - which may result in eternal damnation.
But hardly anyone believes that they themselves will go to hell. Haven't you seen these bumper stickers?
And haven't you heard anyone saying that salvation comes from faith and not works?
Do you imagine a career criminal is more likely to be an atheist or a devout Christian?
At present, a devout Christian, because there are more of them.
If life is a result of some happy accident of nature, survival is meaningless because no life needs to exist.
Your conclusion does not appear to follow from your premise. Why should things that are contingent be meaningless?

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 857 of 1006 (807323)
05-02-2017 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 851 by Dredge
05-02-2017 2:32 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
Yes. I accept all my God's judgements as righteous and just. He doesn't do evil.
So how would you set about proving that genocide is OK if God approves of it?
You say you "accept" it, but that merely describes your subjective frame of mind. How would you prove it as an objective truth?

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 Message 851 by Dredge, posted 05-02-2017 2:32 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 885 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 3:28 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 865 of 1006 (807410)
05-03-2017 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 864 by Dredge
05-03-2017 1:00 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
You keep using harm as a major part of your argument, but harm is actually not a good indicator of morality. For example, a dentist will harm you when he pulls your tooth out - then he harms you again when he gives you the bill. A professional boxer will get in a ring and bash someone in order to get money to provide food and shelter for his family. A soldier will shoot an opponent dead. A judge will harm you when he takes your licence away for six months for drink-driving. A policeman will harm you when he hands you a $300 ticket for speeding.
Wow that was sophomoric. I can't tell whether you're genuinely that stupid, or whether you're being disingenuous.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 867 of 1006 (807412)
05-03-2017 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 866 by Dredge
05-03-2017 1:04 AM


Re: Let's start over.
Do you have a reference for that quote?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 866 by Dredge, posted 05-03-2017 1:04 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 884 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 3:20 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 868 of 1006 (807413)
05-03-2017 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 862 by Dredge
05-03-2017 12:52 AM


Sounds a bit tendentious to me. In the 20th century, non-religious morality proved much more dangerous and deadly than all the religion in history - just ask the six millions Jews that Hilter murdered ...
Hitler was in fact religious, so you chose a singularly poor example there.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 889 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 3:44 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 875 of 1006 (807429)
05-03-2017 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 873 by Dredge
05-03-2017 2:20 AM


An evolved mind can create a delusion of meaning, but it can't create meaning.
Can you demonstrate this, or is it just one of the many many things you like to assert without argument or evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 873 by Dredge, posted 05-03-2017 2:20 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 902 by Dredge, posted 05-05-2017 6:46 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 882 of 1006 (807529)
05-03-2017 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 861 by Dredge
05-03-2017 12:29 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
It's possible that I'm even better at philosophy than I am at science!
It's hard to say, it's like trying to decide whether a dead mule is better at ballet or knitting.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 893 of 1006 (807593)
05-04-2017 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 885 by Dredge
05-04-2017 3:28 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
I can't; but (assuming that my God exists) I don't have to prove that any of God's judgements are righteous and just ...
Then you should probably stop prating about how "God can provide an objective, universal code of morality".

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 894 of 1006 (807594)
05-04-2017 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 884 by Dredge
05-04-2017 3:20 AM


Re: Let's start over.
Darwinism: Science or Naturalistic Philosophy? April 30, 1994
Well that's weird because that's the title of a debate between him and Phillip Johnson, and since Johnson is a crazed creationist loon surely Johnson would be pretending that it's a "naturalistic philosophy" while Provine would be arguing that it was science.
So I think you may have made a mistake here. Admittedly Provine was not a scientist, but it is hard to imagine any sane and educated man making such a silly mistake, so it seems more likely that the quote originates with Johnson.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 884 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 3:20 AM Dredge has not replied

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 895 of 1006 (807595)
05-04-2017 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 889 by Dredge
05-04-2017 3:44 AM


Perhaps you are right ... which religion did he follow? Please don't say Catholicism.
Some sort of Christian. At any rate he was a theist and creationist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 889 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 3:44 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 905 by Dredge, posted 05-05-2017 7:27 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 918 of 1006 (807807)
05-05-2017 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 902 by Dredge
05-05-2017 6:46 AM


I can demonstrate my point by using The Parable of the Empty Box:
An empty box is an empty box. Only a deluded/dysfunctional mind sees something in an empty box.
This is a very deep concept, so don't get discouraged if you don't initially understand it. But persevere and keep thinking about it - finally the penny will drop.
Well, if you know what you think you're talking about, how about you cut to the chase and explain it to the rest of us?

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 919 of 1006 (807809)
05-05-2017 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 905 by Dredge
05-05-2017 7:27 AM


A citation please.
The most marvelous proof of the superiority of Man, which puts man ahead of the animals, is the fact that he understands that there must be a Creator. - Adolf Hitler, Hitler's Tabletalk (Tischgesprache im Fuhrerhauptquartier)
For it was by the Will of God that men were made of a certain bodily shape, were given their natures and their faculties. - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, vol. ii, ch. x
From where do we get the right to believe, that from the very beginning Man was not what he is today? Looking at Nature tells us, that in the realm of plants and animals changes and developments happen. But nowhere inside a kind shows such a development as the breadth of the jump , as Man must supposedly have made, if he has developed from an ape-like state to what he is today. - Adolf Hitler, Hitler's Tabletalk (Tischgesprache im Fuhrerhauptquartier)
The fox remains always a fox, the goose remains a goose, and the tiger will retain the character of a tiger. The only difference that can exist within the species must be in the various degrees of structural strength and active power, in the intelligence, efficiency, endurance, etc., with which the individual specimens are endowed. (Mein Kampf, vol. i, ch. xi)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 920 of 1006 (807810)
05-05-2017 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 910 by Dredge
05-05-2017 7:57 AM


Wiki' describes Jones as "an American comminist and cult leader". If he was also a Christian, he was a very poor example of one.
But for the word "American", that's probably about how Pontius Pilate would have described Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 910 by Dredge, posted 05-05-2017 7:57 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 923 of 1006 (807818)
05-05-2017 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 906 by Dredge
05-05-2017 7:34 AM


Re: Let's start over.
I know what you're getting at, but you can't separate reality into separate compartments. Darwinism is an idea that has undeniable ontological implications.
What do you think "ontological" means?
This is obvioius from the contrasting reactions of clerics and athesits to Darwin's book after it was published.
Y'mean, the Biblical literalists didn't like it? Sure they didn't. But that's not because it says or implies "anything at all about life after death or morality or the meaning of life". It's 'cos it casts doubt on the story about the talking snake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 906 by Dredge, posted 05-05-2017 7:34 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 924 of 1006 (807834)
05-05-2017 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 886 by Dredge
05-04-2017 3:33 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
I'm not required to prove the points you suggested because I put myself in the same boat as everyone else - ie, I can't prove that my code of morality is any more correct than anyone else's. Never said I could.
So if you're right about that then the remaining difference between us is that I can say genocide is wrong and you can't.
Christianity, eh?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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