Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,387 Year: 3,644/9,624 Month: 515/974 Week: 128/276 Day: 2/23 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   How do you define the word Evolution?
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 599 of 936 (807499)
05-03-2017 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 587 by Dredge
05-03-2017 1:55 AM


Re: Creationists, What's The Point?
Dredge writes:
If you did a survey of passers-by on the street and asked them what is meant by "biological evolution" or "the theory of evolution", 99.99% of them will say is the process by which complex forms of life evolved from much more simpler forms of life. They wouldn't refer to the mechanism by which evolution happens, but to the end result - which seems to be the opposite of how those terms are used in biology.
If you asked a person on the street about the theory of relativity they would probably say something very different than what the scientists say. Does that mean the theory of relativity is not a sound theory? Does that mean the scientists are wrong about relativity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 587 by Dredge, posted 05-03-2017 1:55 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 600 of 936 (807500)
05-03-2017 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 591 by Dredge
05-03-2017 2:12 AM


Re: If Not, What?
Dredge writes:
Thank you, but I would like to see Taq's definition.
Why do creationists have such a fascination and obsession with definitions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by Dredge, posted 05-03-2017 2:12 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 601 of 936 (807501)
05-03-2017 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 590 by Dredge
05-03-2017 2:08 AM


Re: If Not, What?
Dredge writes:
Chicko gave them to me.
Assuming you are referring to Jack Chick, why in the world would you get your science information from religious tracts?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 590 by Dredge, posted 05-03-2017 2:08 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 612 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 6:27 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 602 of 936 (807502)
05-03-2017 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 589 by Dredge
05-03-2017 2:03 AM


Re: If Not, What?
Dredge writes:
Thank you for that very interesting information. But somewhere in the mix a human being contains more genetic information than an amoeba.
By what measure? How do you determine how much information is in a DNA sequence? For example:
ATTACCATGGTCCTAGAAGTTCGGCACAGTTAGTTCGAGCCTAATGTCACA
AATGACGCAGAACGCCAATGAGTGCCAGACATTAGGTGGAGTTCAGTTCG
GTAACGGAGAGACTCTGCGGCGTACTTAATTATGCATTTGAAACGCGCCCA
AGTGACGCTAGGCAAGTCAGAGCAGGTT CCCGTGTTAGCTTGAGGGTA
How much genetic information is in that sequence?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by Dredge, posted 05-03-2017 2:03 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 613 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 6:29 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 603 of 936 (807503)
05-03-2017 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 585 by Dredge
05-03-2017 12:41 AM


Re: Part of the problem?
Dredge writes:
If so, then it is possible to accept evolution as a fact without believing that all life evolved from a common ancestor.
The question is why you would reject the conclusion of a universal common ancestor when we have mountains of evidence to support the conclusion.
"The theory of evolution is the process by which organisms change over time as a result of changes in heritable physical or behavioural traits." This definition contains nothing at all about "how it happens" - as in your definition.
Wiki's definition of the theory of evolution is more like your definition of evolution ie, "heritable change in a population". Quite a difference.
Is it any wonder creationists get confused about definitions of "evolution" and "the theory of evolution", when evolutionists themselves can't even agree?
Why the obsession with definitions? Why would you expect a one sentence definition on Wikipedia to cover the entire breadth of the theory?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by Dredge, posted 05-03-2017 12:41 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 606 by CRR, posted 05-04-2017 5:26 AM Taq has replied
 Message 631 by Dredge, posted 05-05-2017 6:06 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 652 of 936 (808110)
05-08-2017 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 606 by CRR
05-04-2017 5:26 AM


Re: Part of the problem?
CRR writes:
I agree, Taq, universal common ancestry is inseparable from both Darwin's theory of evolution and the modern synthesis.
Strange that you would characterize my posts in such a manner since I said the exact opposite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 606 by CRR, posted 05-04-2017 5:26 AM CRR has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 653 of 936 (808112)
05-08-2017 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 631 by Dredge
05-05-2017 6:06 AM


Re: Part of the problem?
Dredge writes:
Mountains of pseudo-evidence, more like it.
Care to give an example?
Er, what you refer to as an "obsession with definitions" might have something to with the fact that the topic we are discussing is entitled, "How do you define the word Evolution?"
That a creationist would start a thread on the definition of evolution only further highlights the obsession that creationists have with definitions, as opposed to facts and science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Dredge, posted 05-05-2017 6:06 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 656 by Dredge, posted 05-10-2017 3:42 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 654 of 936 (808115)
05-08-2017 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 646 by CRR
05-06-2017 2:03 AM


Re: Where are we now?
CRR writes:
Darwinsim IS the theory of common descent.
False. Darwin's book was all about descent with modification as caused by natural selection. Nowhere did he claim in the original book that all life shared a universal common ancestor.
Variation, adaptation, and natural selection all were recognised before Charles Darwin.
Can you please cite an earlier work that theorized descent with modification by natural selection?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 646 by CRR, posted 05-06-2017 2:03 AM CRR has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 655 of 936 (808117)
05-08-2017 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 648 by CRR
05-06-2017 3:25 AM


Re: Where are we now?
CRR writes:
Darwin was arguing for descent from one or a few original forms.
Therefore, Darwinism did not include universal common descent as a required condition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by CRR, posted 05-06-2017 3:25 AM CRR has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 658 of 936 (808358)
05-10-2017 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 656 by Dredge
05-10-2017 3:42 AM


Re: Part of the problem?
Dredge writes:
The fossil record.
How is the fossil record "pseudo-evidence"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 656 by Dredge, posted 05-10-2017 3:42 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 665 by Dredge, posted 05-12-2017 5:07 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 664 of 936 (808519)
05-11-2017 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 662 by CRR
05-11-2017 7:50 AM


CRR writes:
Intelligent design proponent David Klinghoffer (2016) claims that intelligent design is a theory of evolution, seeking to explain why biological diversity flowers and grows in the manner it does. It’s just not Darwin’s theory of evolution.
The problem is that all he has is claims and no evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 7:50 AM CRR has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 676 of 936 (809238)
05-17-2017 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 674 by Dredge
05-16-2017 6:23 PM


Re: Part of the problem?
Dredge writes:
Wrong (see post # 673). And you've obviously missed the irony here - your messiah, Charles Darwin, died in the nineteenth century, yet you see no problem in quoting him! The pot just called the kettle, black.
And once again, we see creationists trying to make evolution look like their religious beliefs in order to discredit it. Shows you how much respect they have for their own beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 674 by Dredge, posted 05-16-2017 6:23 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 694 of 936 (810204)
05-25-2017 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 690 by CRR
05-24-2017 11:52 PM


Re: the word Evolution?
CRR writes:
So you have actually confirmed the problem. There are multiple definitions.
They all say the same thing, so I don't understand what your problem is.
For instance evolution of galaxies requires no change in allele frequencies.
Did you read the entire definition?
""In the broadest sense, evolution is merely change, and so is all-pervasive; galaxies, languages, and political systems all evolve. Biological evolution ... is change in the properties of populations of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual. The ontogeny of an individual is not considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve. The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next. Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions."
It clearly defines what biological evolution is and differentiates it from changes in other systems.
I see in Message 545 that you say "No one disagrees that LUCA is part of evolutionary theory.", yet there are others in this thread who clearly do not agree with that.
Yet another misrepresentation of our position. What we are saying is that the theory does not require a universal common ancestor. However, since the evidence does point to a universal common ancestor then it is part of the theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 690 by CRR, posted 05-24-2017 11:52 PM CRR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 695 by NosyNed, posted 05-25-2017 10:53 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 697 of 936 (810212)
05-25-2017 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 695 by NosyNed
05-25-2017 10:53 AM


Re: LUCA
NosyNed writes:
Well, actually I don't agree. The theory is the description (model) of how populations evolve. It demands nothing about what has or will happen. The facts at hand say that there was a LUCA but the theory makes no comment on that. It just suggests how changes will occur from a LUCA or from multiple ancestors separately arising.
The fact is the evolution of life on earth (not the model of how it happened) seems to have a very early LUCA.
I suspect that we are saying the same thing.
To put it another way, if there were multiple origins of life then the theory would change to reflect that reality while still proposing the same mechanisms of change.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 695 by NosyNed, posted 05-25-2017 10:53 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 698 by NosyNed, posted 05-25-2017 11:57 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 699 of 936 (810215)
05-25-2017 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 698 by NosyNed
05-25-2017 11:57 AM


Re: Theory (not life's history)
NosyNed writes:
How would the theory change?
It would change from a theory using a universal common ancestor to a theory with multiple common ancestors.
As you said, the theory is a model of reality so the theory changes to fit what we learn about reality. The theory that Darwin first proposed was ambiguous to the number of common ancestors, but that theory changed as we discovered more about biological realities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by NosyNed, posted 05-25-2017 11:57 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024