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Author | Topic: PC Gone Too Far | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 284 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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It's a way of hiding history. Let's stop doing that ...
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Chiroptera Inactive Member
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Funny thing is that back when I was in school, we learned pretty well how horrible slavery was, how Southern culture was based deeply upon the horrors of slavery, and how national politics was dominated by the issue of slavery right up to the Civil War. And we learned this in...southeast Alaska where we had no Confederate monuments at all.
In fact, the people fighting to keep the monuments? They are the ones trying to whitewash history and present the antebellum South as some kind of Uncle Reemus fantasy land. The ones who are trying to remove the symbols and monuments glorifying the "Lost Cause" are the ones trying to maintain an appropriate focus on the real horror in our actual history.Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. — Billy Bragg
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Funny thing is that back when I was in school, we learned pretty well how horrible slavery was, how Southern culture was based deeply upon the horrors of slavery, and how national politics was dominated by the issue of slavery right up to the Civil War. And we learned this in...southeast Alaska where we had no Confederate monuments at all. In fact, the people fighting to keep the monuments? They are the ones trying to whitewash history and present the antebellum South as some kind of Uncle Reemus fantasy land. The ones who are trying to remove the symbols and monuments glorifying the "Lost Cause" are the ones trying to maintain an appropriate focus on the real horror in our actual history. Just curious: How do you know? That is, how do you know that you're right that they're really trying to hide their true selves and are not being honest, and that your, far-removed, perspective is actually the correct one? 'Cause at face-value; I'll believe them over you, no offense.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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That is, how do you know that you're right that they're really trying to hide their true selves and are not being honest, and that your, far-removed, perspective is actually the correct one? I don't think there is a question regarding honesty here. I am willing to take the protests of the statue supporters at face value. But the question of whether their views are historically correct and whether the 'Lost Cause' view of the civil war is incorrect is a question that has largely been decided by academics and historians. The history that these folks revere is horrific and the culture they celebrate, barbaric and completely inseparable from the worst abuse this side of the holocaust. Even if folks are honest about celebrating only the heroic portions of that history, then celebrations are a white-wash regardless of honest intent or honorable motives. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I don't think there is a question regarding honesty here. It was right there in the post I replied to:
quote: There's a real horrific actual history that southerners are trying to hide with a fantasy... I'm not buying it, but the claim is there.
I am willing to take the protests of the statue supporters at face value. But the question of whether their views are historically correct and whether the 'Lost Cause' view of the civil war is incorrect is a question that has largely been decided by academics and historians. If they are simply wrong about the facts of the matter, then they're not trying to hide the real horror of actual history by whitewashing it with a fantasy - they're just wrong (I'm not convinced that they are, but that's beside the point).
The history that these folks revere is horrific and the culture they celebrate, barbaric and completely inseparable from the worst abuse this side of the holocaust. Just like most of history... The American Revolution, Columbus discovering America, etc. It was brutal and horrific, yes. Let's not hide that.
Even if folks are honest about celebrating only the heroic portions of that history, then celebrations are a white-wash regardless of honest intent or honorable motives. Perhaps, but it assumes you're correct about the history.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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New Cat's Eye writes:
I'm buying it. There's a lot of denial and self-delusion involved but white Southerners are definitely trying to sweep real history under the rug in favor of something less painful and more "glorious".
There's a real horrific actual history that southerners are trying to hide with a fantasy... I'm not buying it, but the claim is there.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I'm buying it. There's a lot of denial and self-delusion involved but white Southerners are definitely trying to sweep real history under the rug in favor of something less painful and more "glorious". Ok, that's a similar claim: So, where's the evidence?
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
What would constitute evidence of self-delusion?
Ok, that's a similar claim: So, where's the evidence?
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
If they are simply wrong about the facts of the matter, then they're not trying to hide the real horror of actual history by whitewashing it with a fantasy - they're just wrong It is in fact a fantasy. The Lost Cause is a fully developed and BS version of the history before and including the civil war.
There's a real horrific actual history that southerners are trying to hide with a fantasy... I'm not buying it, but the claim is there. Some southerners, yes. Your doubts are based on what exactly? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
In the editorial The Meaning of Our Confederate ‘Monuments’ in today's New York Times author Gary Shapiro argues for what he calls the "contextualist position." Focusing on Richmond's Monument Avenue he concludes:
quote: --Percy
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
New Cat's Eye writes:
What would constitute evidence of self-delusion? Ok, that's a similar claim: So, where's the evidence? You tell me - what are you basing your conclusion on?
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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New Cat's Eye writes:
You tell me - what are you basing your conclusion on?quote:
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Chiroptera Inactive Member
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Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing prominent monuments to white Southerners who resisted the Confederacy by engaging in acts of sabotage, helping escaped Union POWs get to the north, and forming guerilla units.
I admit it's not so much for history as much as it's to see the good ol' boys scream.Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. — Billy Bragg
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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Percy writes: In the editorial The Meaning of Our Confederate ‘Monuments’ in today's New York Times author Gary Shapiro argues for what he calls the "contextualist position." Focusing on Richmond's Monument Avenue he concludes: There is also a social and cultural context that can't be ignored. These statues are and were venerated by white nationalists. These statues are not simply historical relics that communicate about our past, but are political and propaganda tools used by racist organizations. It's one thing to have a museum detailing the Holocaust. It is yet another to have a massive statue of Hitler in the town square that is venerated by Neo-Nazis.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I admit it's not so much for history as much as it's to see the good ol' boys scream. Ah, so you don't know; you're just prejudiced
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