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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13122
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 706 of 715 (807676)
05-04-2017 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 699 by Faith
05-04-2017 10:00 AM


Re: Summing up Larson
I think that it is quite clear that Larson assumes that the star story was at least based on actual events and went looking for events that seemed to match. Thus he found the conjunction of Jupiter with Regulus, but preferred the later conjunction with Venus.

quote:

I want to see the dates more clearly too. When did Jupiter start passing Regulus, what was the date? How long did the three passes take? Did they lead right up to Rosh Hashana or overlap it or what?

Certainly Larson should provide that information- I guess that the problem with a video of a live talk is that sort of detail tends to be omitted. There are good reasons for preferring written sources.

quote:

I don't think he started out looking for astrological meanings...

I think that he did and he should have - but he should have done a better job of it. An astrological element is all but explicit in Matthew.

quote:

But the most striking one in any case is the fact that the Virgo image is exactly what John saw

Except that it looks like it isn't. The "crowned with twelve stars" seems contrived for a start. And as I pointed out it doesn't look like the chapter is even mostly astrological symbolism so it may be coincidence.

quote:

And its rising on Rosh Hashana adds MUCH weight to its connection with Israel. (Would John have known anything about the constellations: About the position of Virgo at Rosh Hashana?

It's not something that would be obscure. However there is nothing in the text of Revelation 12 that seems to suggest a connection with Rosh Hashanah, so the suggestion that it is important is certainly questionable.

quote:

Then I'd like to know how long that conjunction lasted. If it's what the Magi saw in Babylon how did they know it was about the birth of a Jewish king? Since the conjunction wouldn't last long enough to be their guide to Bethlehem, why doesn't Larson talk about its being the much less bright Jupiter alone they follow?

The answer seems to be that they would not have known. This is why I point out that Larson's astrological interpretation seems to be his invention.

quote:

I think it's very striking when the blood moon rises after the crucifixion at the feet of the constellation Virgo. And touching. I would like to know exactly what time it rose though.

Apparently it would not have been very striking in Jerusalem, with the eclipse ending before it became visible. Larson thinks otherwise, and even assumes that it would have been impressive which I think is hardly true even if the last moments are just about visible on the horizon.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 699 by Faith, posted 05-04-2017 10:00 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 708 by NoNukes, posted 05-04-2017 5:47 PM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 709 by Faith, posted 05-04-2017 6:01 PM PaulK has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9921
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 707 of 715 (807677)
05-04-2017 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 705 by PaulK
05-04-2017 4:18 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
It's not even the opinion I saw on Wikipedia

I checked again, and I don't see the sentence that I saw before... Perhaps I clicked on a different link by mistake...

My bad. I stand by my point that the issue is one for debate and not for a display of righteous indignation that folks disagree with you.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 705 by PaulK, posted 05-04-2017 4:18 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9921
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 708 of 715 (807679)
05-04-2017 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 706 by PaulK
05-04-2017 5:03 PM


Re: Summing up Larson
Apparently it would not have been very striking in Jerusalem, with the eclipse ending before it became visible. Larson thinks otherwise, and even assumes that it would have been impressive which I think is hardly true even if the last moments are just about visible on the horizon.

I would add to this the fact that the sky/moon appearing red near the horizon is a pretty common thing. If the eclipse were barely visible on the horizon, I doubt that the red color would appear anomalous. Not sure even how we know that the eclipse appeared red anyway. Admittedly I did not check into that.

Here is a link to a detailed written description of what Larson presents in the video. Maybe pointing to this will be more efficient than posting multiple links to the video, particularly when the directions lack any time references to salient points.

http://theseekermag.com/...as-for-theories-by-melody-dareing

Here is an AIG critque of Larson's work:

https://answersingenesis.org/...of-the-star-of-bethlehem-dvd

From the summary:

quote:
In conclusion, Larsons thesis is fraught with problems. It completely relies upon the late death of Herod, something that few historians have embraced. It has some obvious astrological connections that we have not discussed in any detail here. These astrological connections are related to the so-called gospel in the stars theory, which is without foundation, and I have discussed elsewhere. Though Larson does not date the birth of Jesus to December 25, there is a suspicious clinging to that date that has no real connection to the birth of Jesus. This star doesnt fit the description of Matthew 2.

And finally, the AIG warning about the whole idea of latching onto scientific evidence (good for a laugh at least).

quote:
Finally, Mr. Larson means well, and many people who have watched the DVD have gleaned much encouragement from it, but it does take us into a dangerous direction. This DVD attempts to give some scientific answer for why the Bible must be true. The Bible never makes such claims for itself, for it stands as propositional truth, and we reject it at our peril. The DVD attempts to bolster peoples faith by showing that there is a natural explanation for the star of Bethlehem, as if we doubted that it actually happened.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 706 by PaulK, posted 05-04-2017 5:03 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 709 of 715 (807682)
05-04-2017 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 706 by PaulK
05-04-2017 5:03 PM


Re: Summing up Larson
I think that it is quite clear that Larson assumes that the star story was at least based on actual events and went looking for events that seemed to match.

That much is true, yes, but I doubt when he started out he had any more expectation than that he was looking for a bright star to identify Jesus' birth, which would have been event enough at that point.

Thus he found the conjunction of Jupiter with Regulus, but preferred the later conjunction with Venus.

The first wasn't bright enough to be the star, isn't that the idea?

I want to see the dates more clearly too. When did Jupiter start passing Regulus, what was the date? How long did the three passes take? Did they lead right up to Rosh Hashana or overlap it or what?

Certainly Larson should provide that information- I guess that the problem with a video of a live talk is that sort of detail tends to be omitted. There are good reasons for preferring written sources.

Unfortunately his website isn't more informative on those points. He does provide more information about dating the crucifixion which looks interesting but I haven't spent time reading it yet.

I don't think he started out looking for astrological meanings...

I think that he did and he should have -

Well, I don't think he knew that's what they were.

but he should have done a better job of it. An astrological element is all but explicit in Matthew.

A bright star that stands for the birth of a king, of course, but I hadn't appreciated that fact either.

But the most striking one in any case is the fact that the Virgo image is exactly what John saw

Except that it looks like it isn't. The "crowned with twelve stars" seems contrived for a start. And as I pointed out it doesn't look like the chapter is even mostly astrological symbolism so it may be coincidence.

The image itself of Virgo with the sun and moon as described is quite enough. I'm not going to continue this argument.

And its rising on Rosh Hashana adds MUCH weight to its connection with Israel. (Would John have known anything about the constellations: About the position of Virgo at Rosh Hashana?

It's not something that would be obscure. However there is nothing in the text of Revelation 12 that seems to suggest a connection with Rosh Hashanah, so the suggestion that it is important is certainly questionable.

Since that's the only time Virgo would be "clothed in the sun and with the moon at her feet" it has to be important. It implies all sorts of interesting things about the place of Israel in God's plan of redemption.

Then I'd like to know how long that conjunction lasted. If it's what the Magi saw in Babylon how did they know it was about the birth of a Jewish king? Since the conjunction wouldn't last long enough to be their guide to Bethlehem, why doesn't Larson talk about its being the much less bright Jupiter alone they follow?

The answer seems to be that they would not have known. This is why I point out that Larson's astrological interpretation seems to be his invention.

Not following you.

I think it's very striking when the blood moon rises after the crucifixion at the feet of the constellation Virgo. And touching. I would like to know exactly what time it rose though.

Apparently it would not have been very striking in Jerusalem, with the eclipse ending before it became visible. Larson thinks otherwise, and even assumes that it would have been impressive which I think is hardly true even if the last moments are just about visible on the horizon.

It's a question of timing. Maybe he got something wrong about that.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 706 by PaulK, posted 05-04-2017 5:03 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 710 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2017 12:41 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13122
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 710 of 715 (807699)
05-05-2017 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 709 by Faith
05-04-2017 6:01 PM


Re: Summing up Larson
quote:

That much is true, yes, but I doubt when he started out he had any more expectation than that he was looking for a bright star to identify Jesus' birth, which would have been event enough at that point.

He might well have gone for a nova (or supernova) or a comet - others have. But a bright star alone obviously wouldn't work - he needed astrological significance.

quote:

The first wasn't bright enough to be the star, isn't that the idea?

I don't see why it would have to be especially bright.

quote:

Unfortunately his website isn't more informative on those points. He does provide more information about dating the crucifixion which looks interesting but I haven't spent time reading it yet.


Any such work is speculative (not least since the Jewish calendar still relied on observing the moon, and could vary from the published dates) - making the main clue, the Passover, insufficient to reduce the possibilities.

quote:

Well, I don't think he knew that's what they were.

He would have to be remarkably ignorant not to know he was dealing with astrology. As I said it is pretty clear in Matthew that the magi used astrology.

quote:

The image itself of Virgo with the sun and moon as described is quite enough. I'm not going to continue this argument.

It may be enough for you, but where the symbolism is so uncertain it isn't really much.

quote:

Not following you

The magi would have used the astrology of their time. Larson implicitly argues that they would interpret things his way - which is based on his own thinking. But in reality that is very, very unlikely.

quote:

It's a question of timing. Maybe he got something wrong about that.

Which is a count against him. He makes quite a big point of it in the video, but if it is wrong he really shouldn't.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 709 by Faith, posted 05-04-2017 6:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 711 of 715 (807773)
05-05-2017 11:43 AM


The Star of Bethlehem is slightly off Topic
This thread is suppose to be about the Messianic prophecies, all of which Jesus fulfilled, including the year of His Death

(Proposed New Topic..yet to be allowed called Daniel 9)

There is no prophecy I know of about the Star of Bethlem or the angel of Bethlehem, that stood over the manager where Jesus was. (Retrograde planets do not hover over a manager.)

However the magi, or astronmers, or Zorast****** did fulfill prophecy in that they gave gifts to the King of Kings.

https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en-CA&source=hp&biw=&bih=...

Fulfilling Psalm 72 ....

So Yes, the wise men followed the stars or angel in the sky and it lead them to the Messiah, the Creator of the world, and in so doing fulfilled prophecy.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


Replies to this message:
 Message 712 by Davidjay, posted 05-12-2017 9:27 AM Davidjay has responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 712 of 715 (808694)
05-12-2017 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 711 by Davidjay
05-05-2017 11:43 AM


Re: Which Messianic Prophecy did not Jesus fulfill
The challenge is put forward by myself for one, which of the Messianic Prophecies did not Jesus fulfill ?

But do note, you have to know prophecy and timelines and the placement of events before you can get it right.

But for the Messianic Prophecies that do not include future events, which of the things Jesus did and said, and were part of his birth, life and death were not forertold by His past prophets that went before HIM.

If you cant come up with any, then AGAIN your lack of design and intelligence fails, random-ness fails, and Design wins.

Design of time is called prophecy, all major events are by design, none are by chance and by accident, but first lets discuss or I challenge you to bring forth your supposed Mesianic prophecies that have NOT been fulfilled by Jesus, the Lord of Lords and King of Kings

and ...wait for it .....

.

.

Creator.

Not magic mutations and luck and chance, but Jesus was the Creator.....

OCS

David

Bring'em on


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 711 by Davidjay, posted 05-05-2017 11:43 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 713 by Davidjay, posted 05-16-2017 12:24 PM Davidjay has responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 713 of 715 (809150)
05-16-2017 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 712 by Davidjay
05-12-2017 9:27 AM


Re: Which Messianic Prophecy did not Jesus fulfill
Wait for it... and we waited for it... because by an absense of dissent and because no one can post any Messianic Prophecy that Jesus did not fulfill... I can declare a winner and a fulfiller of all Messianic Prophecies

Jesus wins and was and is the Messiah of all time and of all the Universe.

To join His winning team go HERE..

http://www.davidjayjordan.com/SalvationForest.html

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


Evolutyionists are used to forcing their theory on students and scientists. They are not used to answering any questions on this theory, because it is their religion. And as a religion it must be accepted by faith.... It is not science and it is not logical or rational and has no facts behind it. Evolution is a con and a LIE. A big one, but because it is forced on the gullible and on students, they must accept it. This their modus operandi...and so when faced with sane biological opposition, they can only be subjective rather than objective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 712 by Davidjay, posted 05-12-2017 9:27 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 714 by Davidjay, posted 05-20-2017 11:51 AM Davidjay has responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 714 of 715 (809710)
05-20-2017 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 713 by Davidjay
05-16-2017 12:24 PM


Re: Which Messianic Prophecy did not Jesus fulfill
Because we cant post anti-evolution verses HERE, let me post some more Messianic Prophetic verses

Crucified with criminals
Isaiah 53:12
Matthew 27:35
His body was pierced
Zechariah 12:10; Ps.
22:16
John 20:25, 27
Thirsty during execution
Psalm 22:16
John 19:28
Given vinegar and gall for thirst
Psalm 69:21
Matthew 27:34
Soldiers gambled for his garment
Psalm 22:18
Matthew 27:35

This is not contrived and not a set up, and not self fulfilled.

No one dies like this, except via design, and except with Jesus consent to die in such a disgusting way... Nevertheless the Saviour of the Universe had to go through with this humiliation, suffering and death to be able to die for the sins of the whole world, and HE DID.

http://www.davidjayjordan.com/Jesus.html


Evolutionists are brainless whoosies, gutless and cowards.
They are not scientists, but religionists that choose to deny facts and truths of science. Intelligence and design always defeats their lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is a losers doctrine, simply because they are either lazy or dishonest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 713 by Davidjay, posted 05-16-2017 12:24 PM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 715 by Davidjay, posted 05-27-2017 7:27 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 715 of 715 (810318)
05-27-2017 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 714 by Davidjay
05-20-2017 11:51 AM


Re: Summary Mode, as Jesus fulfilled all Messianic Prophecies
Summary Mode please...as no one can deny that Jesus did not fulfill all prophecies concerning him.. for He was the Messiah.

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


Evolutionists are brainless whoosies, gutless and cowards.
They are not scientists, but religionists that choose to deny facts and truths of science. Intelligence and design always defeats their lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is a losers doctrine, simply because they are either lazy or dishonest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 714 by Davidjay, posted 05-20-2017 11:51 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
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