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Author Topic:   PC Gone Too Far
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6397
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 706 of 732 (809174)
05-16-2017 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 705 by New Cat's Eye
05-16-2017 12:10 PM


Re: Confederate Monuments Worth Puttin Up
I'm a bad bat.

Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. – Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 705 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-16-2017 12:10 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 707 by xongsmith, posted 05-17-2017 1:22 AM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply
 Message 710 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-17-2017 11:03 AM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1819
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 707 of 732 (809203)
05-17-2017 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 706 by Chiroptera
05-16-2017 5:02 PM


Re: Confederate Monuments Worth Puttin Up
Chiroptera rues himself:

I'm a bad bat.

...maybe not. you could just have channeled a bad treeshrew here.


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 706 by Chiroptera, posted 05-16-2017 5:02 PM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16163
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 708 of 732 (809226)
05-17-2017 9:27 AM


et tu, Beauregard?
In today's New York Times, New Orleans Removes Beauregard Statue, and Subdued Crowds Look On:

quote:
...the six-ton, 102-year-old statue of Beauregard astride a horse was lifted off the pedestal to be crated and stored at an undisclosed warehouse.

A warehouse. This is a lost opportunity to put context around the statue. Now the statue will be forgotten. Or perhaps it will be purchased by white supremacists to use in promoting their agenda.

The remaining monument is that of Robert E. Lee.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 709 by Taq, posted 05-17-2017 11:01 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 711 by Chiroptera, posted 05-17-2017 1:39 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 713 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-18-2017 9:53 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 709 of 732 (809239)
05-17-2017 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 708 by Percy
05-17-2017 9:27 AM


Re: et tu, Beauregard?
Percy writes:

A warehouse. This is a lost opportunity to put context around the statue. Now the statue will be forgotten. Or perhaps it will be purchased by white supremacists to use in promoting their agenda.

It could also be donated to a Civil War museum that can put all of these statues and relics in their proper cultural and historical context.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 708 by Percy, posted 05-17-2017 9:27 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 710 of 732 (809240)
05-17-2017 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 706 by Chiroptera
05-16-2017 5:02 PM


Re: Confederate Monuments Worth Puttin Up
I'm a bad bat.

Well, stop being bitter and start getting better.

Disregarding peoples' feelings on a matter and replacing it with an assumption that they are just masking their hate, is a sign of you improperly dealing with your own hate.

But it's all too easy: You don't have to actually think about and address their position if you can just brush them aside with "Nah man, they just hate black people."

That is prejudice and it doen't help.

Here, listen to some country music:

quote:
Brad Paisley Feat LL Cool J - Accidental Racist

To the man that waited on me at the Starbucks down on Main, I hope you understand
When I put on that t-shirt, the only thing I meant to say is I'm a Skynyrd fan
The red flag on my chest somehow is like the elephant in the corner of the south
And I just walked him right in the room
Just a proud rebel son with an ‘ol can of worms
Lookin' like I got a lot to learn but from my point of view

I'm just a white man comin' to you from the southland
Tryin' to understand what it's like not to be
I'm proud of where I'm from but not everything we've done
And it ain't like you and me can re-write history
Our generation didn't start this nation
We're still pickin' up the pieces, walkin' on eggshells, fightin' over yesterday
And caught between southern pride and southern blame

They called it Reconstruction, fixed the buildings, dried some tears
We're still siftin' through the rubble after a hundred-fifty years
I try to put myself in your shoes and that's a good place to begin
But it ain't like I can walk a mile in someone else's skin

‘Cause I'm a white man livin' in the southland
Just like you I'm more than what you see
I'm proud of where I'm from but not everything we've done
And it ain't like you and me can re-write history
Our generation didn't start this nation
And we're still paying for the mistakes
That a bunch of folks made long before we came
And caught between southern pride and southern blame

Dear Mr. White Man, I wish you understood
What the world is really like when you're livin' in the hood
Just because my pants are saggin' doesn't mean I'm up to no good
You should try to get to know me, I really wish you would
Now my chains are gold but I'm still misunderstood
I wasn't there when Sherman's March turned the south into firewood
I want you to get paid but be a slave I never could
Feel like a new fangled Django, dodgin' invisible white hoods
So when I see that white cowboy hat, I'm thinkin' it's not all good
I guess we're both guilty of judgin' the cover not the book
I'd love to buy you a beer, conversate and clear the air
But I see that red flag and I think you wish I wasn't here

I'm just a white man
(If you don't judge my do-rag)
Comin' to you from the southland
(I won't judge your red flag)
Tryin' to understand what it's like not to be

I'm proud of where I'm from
(If you don't judge my gold chains)
But not everything we've done
(I'll forget the iron chains)
It ain't like you and me can re-write history
(Can't re-write history baby)

Oh, Dixieland
(The relationship between the Mason-Dixon needs some fixin')
I hope you understand what this is all about
(Quite frankly I'm a black Yankee but I've been thinkin' about this lately)
I'm a son of the new south
(The past is the past, you feel me)
And I just want to make things right
(Let bygones be bygones)
Where all that's left is southern pride
(RIP Robert E. Lee but I've gotta thank Abraham Lincoln for freeing me, know what I mean)
It's real, it's real
It's truth



This message is a reply to:
 Message 706 by Chiroptera, posted 05-16-2017 5:02 PM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6397
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


(1)
Message 711 of 732 (809259)
05-17-2017 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 708 by Percy
05-17-2017 9:27 AM


Re: et tu, Beauregard?
Or perhaps it will be purchased by white supremacists to use in promoting their agenda.

Weren't most of these monuments originally erected by white supremacists to promote their agenda? If so, how do you "contextualize" that? Put up a big sign in front of it - big enough and positioned so you can't get a good picture of the monument without the sign - that says, "This monument was erected during a time when the unjustified oppression of black citizens was intensifying, to commemorate a society that thought owning other human beings as if they were property was part of an advanced civilization"?


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. – Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 708 by Percy, posted 05-17-2017 9:27 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 712 by NoNukes, posted 05-17-2017 3:03 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10062
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 712 of 732 (809263)
05-17-2017 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 711 by Chiroptera
05-17-2017 1:39 PM


Re: et tu, Beauregard?
to commemorate a society that thought owning other human beings as if they were property was part of an advanced civilization

Chiroptera!! That would be so unfair. White supremacists of every era have a right to their heroes and they deserve to celebrate whoever they wish, right in the middle of town. How dare you suggest hang a sign condemning the ancestors of the Daughters of the Confederacy?

[sarcasm off]

The current intent is not to put keep these statues in a warehouse. New Orleans has already received a number of requests for the statues. A couple of weeks in a warehouse is no big deal. These things have been eyesores for decades.

Percy writes:

Or perhaps it will be purchased by white supremacists to use in promoting their agenda.

Haters are going to hate. But maybe they won't get to promote their agenda in the middle of the town square.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 711 by Chiroptera, posted 05-17-2017 1:39 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 713 of 732 (809387)
05-18-2017 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 708 by Percy
05-17-2017 9:27 AM


Re: et tu, Beauregard?
Now they're talking about removing the confederate monument in Forrest Park in St. Louis.

*sigh* I guess I gotta go buy a torch...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 708 by Percy, posted 05-17-2017 9:27 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 714 by NoNukes, posted 05-18-2017 3:54 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10062
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 714 of 732 (809498)
05-18-2017 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 713 by New Cat's Eye
05-18-2017 9:53 AM


Re: et tu, Beauregard?
Now they're talking about removing the confederate monument in Forrest Park in St. Louis.

In my opinion, this statute presents the least controversy and offense of the ones we've looked at. It's also enormous and places to put the statue after moving it may be difficult to find. The article indicates that there is an offer from a museum to take it, but that offer has some issues.

What's the torch for?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 713 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-18-2017 9:53 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16163
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 715 of 732 (809663)
05-20-2017 7:48 AM


Robert E. Lee Statue Removed in New Orleans
Another piece of our history lost:

This article (New Orleans removes monument to Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee) mentions what will replace the statue and where the collection of removed statues will go:

quote:
City officials announced late Thursday that an unspecified water feature will replace the Lee statue, and an American flag will fly where the Davis fixture once stood. Nonprofits and government agencies will eventually be allowed to submit plans that would put the statues on private property. City Park officials will decide what will replace the Beauregard statue.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 716 by Percy, posted 05-20-2017 12:09 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 723 by Taq, posted 05-22-2017 3:01 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16163
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 716 of 732 (809717)
05-20-2017 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 715 by Percy
05-20-2017 7:48 AM


Re: Robert E. Lee Statue Removed in New Orleans
Here's a little bit more detail about the fate of the statues from the New York Times editorial From Lofty Perch, New Orleans Monument to Confederacy Comes Down:

quote:
As for the statues themselves, the city is taking proposals from “nonprofits and governmental entities,” with the aim that they be put in “their proper historical context from a dark period of American history.”

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 715 by Percy, posted 05-20-2017 7:48 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 717 by NoNukes, posted 05-20-2017 2:08 PM Percy has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10062
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 717 of 732 (809729)
05-20-2017 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 716 by Percy
05-20-2017 12:09 PM


Re: Robert E. Lee Statue Removed in New Orleans
As for the statues themselves, the city is taking proposals from “nonprofits and governmental entities,” with the aim that they be put in “their proper historical context from a dark period of American history.”

So not lost..


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 716 by Percy, posted 05-20-2017 12:09 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 718 by Percy, posted 05-21-2017 7:47 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16163
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 718 of 732 (809792)
05-21-2017 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 717 by NoNukes
05-20-2017 2:08 PM


Re: Robert E. Lee Statue Removed in New Orleans
NoNukes writes:

As for the statues themselves, the city is taking proposals from “nonprofits and governmental entities,” with the aim that they be put in “their proper historical context from a dark period of American history.”

So not lost..

It's a good story, obviously I don't believe there will be follow through.

No matter what happens to the original statues, for the sake of historical preservation I think there should be plaques at the original locations explaining that there used to be a statues there and how and in what way they became controversial. Their erection deserved preservation as a record of history, and so does their removal.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 717 by NoNukes, posted 05-20-2017 2:08 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 719 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-21-2017 11:49 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 719 of 732 (809823)
05-21-2017 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 718 by Percy
05-21-2017 7:47 AM


Re: Robert E. Lee Statue Removed in New Orleans
Did you know that Seattle has a statue of Lenin?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle

It's on private property, but still.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 718 by Percy, posted 05-21-2017 7:47 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 720 by Chiroptera, posted 05-21-2017 4:26 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6397
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 720 of 732 (809845)
05-21-2017 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 719 by New Cat's Eye
05-21-2017 11:49 AM


Re: Robert E. Lee Statue Removed in New Orleans
It's on private property, but still.

I think that is an important distinction. Namely, instead of an indictment of the sentiments of an entire community, it becomes more of a question about the motives of the owner of the property.

Speaking of which, according to Wikipedia, it wasn't erected in Seattle as a monument to Lenin's greatness or anything, and the residents of the neighborhood seem to think of it more ironically than as a monument extolling the virtues of totalitarian, single-party rule. I think that's another important difference.

Ss far as I know, there hasn't been any wide spread protests against it standing where it is; that is yet, in my opinion, another important difference.

Still, I can see how immigrants from eastern Europe, especially older ones, would be taken back by seeing it. It is certainly understandable that someone may protest against a statue of intolerant dictator who set up a horrible totalitarian regime.


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. – Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 719 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-21-2017 11:49 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 721 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-22-2017 11:45 AM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

  
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