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Author Topic:   How do you define the word Evolution?
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 706 of 936 (810237)
05-25-2017 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 696 by New Cat's Eye
05-25-2017 11:18 AM


Re: the word Evolution?
NewCat's Eye writes:
Biology IS fuzzy
Fuzzy enuf for Darwinist charlatans to play silly-buggers with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 696 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-25-2017 11:18 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 707 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-26-2017 12:07 AM Dredge has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 707 of 936 (810239)
05-26-2017 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 706 by Dredge
05-25-2017 11:47 PM


Re: the word Evolution?
Are you retarded?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 706 by Dredge, posted 05-25-2017 11:47 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 713 by Dredge, posted 05-27-2017 11:23 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10028
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 708 of 936 (810245)
05-26-2017 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 702 by CRR
05-25-2017 8:29 PM


Re: the word Evolution?
CRR writes:
Unfortunately that can also be phrased as; I study evolution(i), I have observed evolution(ii), and believe evolution(iii) to be true; which can lead to equivocation.
You can observe observe the fact of gravity, theorize as to the cause of gravity, and accept the quantum theory of gravity. You can observe infections and germs, theorize as to the cause of infections, and accept the germ theory of disease.
The entire field of science involves the facts within a field, theories explaining those facts, and a consensus as to what the best theory or theories are. Evolution is no different.
a) By "changes in the composition of hereditary traits" are you referring to mutations that produce new variations in the phenotype by new variations in the genome?
Those changes can include the emergence of a new mutation and then its spread through the population in subsequent generations. It can also include a change in the frequency of already existing alleles, such as in the case of the peppered moth or the case of coat color in pocket mice that I have discussed in other threads. An example in humans is the correlation between latitude and alleles linked to skin color.
b) Neutral theory suggests much of the change in composition and frequency is due to genetic drift rather than being in response to anything? Do you want to cover that? Possibly not; there comes a point in interests of brevity minor points should be omitted from the definition and discussed in accompanying material.
Neutral theory only makes sense when compared to negative and positive selection, so it is a part of the theory of evolution. The theory of evolution covers all changes in the genetic makeup of populations over time.

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 Message 702 by CRR, posted 05-25-2017 8:29 PM CRR has not replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2261 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 709 of 936 (810250)
05-26-2017 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 704 by RAZD
05-25-2017 9:42 PM


Re: the word Evolution?
RAZD writes:
(4) The Theory of Evolution (ToE), stated in simple terms, is that the process of anagenesis, and the process of cladogenesis, are sufficient to explain the diversity of life as we know it, from the fossil record, from the genetic record, from the historic record, and from everyday record of the life we observe in the world all around us.
I think I can go with that.
from the fossil record, as mostly laid down during Noah's Flood,
from the genetic record, showing the common designer of all living things,
from the historic record, as recorded in Genesis,
and from everyday record of the life we observe, descent with modification within the created kinds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 704 by RAZD, posted 05-25-2017 9:42 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 710 by PaulK, posted 05-26-2017 3:17 AM CRR has not replied
 Message 711 by RAZD, posted 05-26-2017 10:23 AM CRR has not replied
 Message 712 by Taq, posted 05-26-2017 10:36 AM CRR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 710 of 936 (810252)
05-26-2017 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 709 by CRR
05-26-2017 2:08 AM


Re: the word Evolution?
quote:
from the fossil record, as mostly laid down during Noah's Flood,
Except that the fossil record was clearly not laid down by any single event.
quote:
from the genetic record, showing the common designer of all living things,
Which clearly shows a pattern consistent with descent with modification rather than the introduction of de novo designs.
quote:
from the historic record, as recorded in Genesis
Which is obviously myth.
quote:
and from everyday record of the life we observe, descent with modification within the created kinds.
The "everyday record" shows descent with modification but it does not show any created kinds.
Reality doesn't really seem to agree with creationism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 709 by CRR, posted 05-26-2017 2:08 AM CRR has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1424 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 711 of 936 (810261)
05-26-2017 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 709 by CRR
05-26-2017 2:08 AM


Re: the word Evolution?
RAZD writes:
(4) The Theory of Evolution (ToE), stated in simple terms, is that the process of anagenesis, and the process of cladogenesis, are sufficient to explain the diversity of life as we know it, from the fossil record, from the genetic record, from the historic record, and from everyday record of the life we observe in the world all around us.
I think I can go with that.
Good, then we can go with that and see where the evidence leads us
from the fossil record, as mostly laid down during Noah's Flood,
Except that when we follow the evidence through the spacial-temporal matrix we do not see a common bottleneck of breeding populations at a common point in the past, nor do we see any radiation of diversity from a single point on the globe.
What we do see are lines of descent tracing paths over the globe that are consistent with evolution of species and the geological changes over time. This explains marsupials in Australia, but not in the Middle East and surrounding continents, it explains marsupials making it to South America and then the lonely Possum making it to North America. It explains placental mammals making it from Africa, Asia and European continents to North and South America, but not to Australia.
from the genetic record, showing the common designer of all living things,
If that designer uses evolutionary processes with little concern over what species live or die.
As a Deist my personal belief is that this designer/god made the universe primed for the development of life, using what we see as scientific processes and laws (from gravity to evolution) with but a single command: "Surprise Me" ...
See Panspermic Pre-Biotic Molecules - Life's Building Blocks (Part I)
and Self-Replicating Molecules - Life's Building Blocks (Part II) - Self-Replicating Molecules - Life's Building Blocks, Part II
from the historic record, as recorded in Genesis,
Which, sadly for you, is not a history book. A better source are cave drawings that accurately record species now extinct living at the time of early Cro-magnon humans, where the "earliest known cave paintings/drawings of animals are at least 35,000 years old ..."
Which gets us back to Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 ... (which also has evidence that no global flood occurred).
and from everyday record of the life we observe, descent with modification within the created kinds.
Microevolution, anagenesis and cladogenesis, causing the hierarchy of nested clades to expand, grow, and add diversity all around us in a continuous process.
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 709 by CRR, posted 05-26-2017 2:08 AM CRR has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10028
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 712 of 936 (810263)
05-26-2017 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 709 by CRR
05-26-2017 2:08 AM


Re: the word Evolution?
CRR writes:
from the fossil record, as mostly laid down during Noah's Flood,
from the genetic record, showing the common designer of all living things,
from the historic record, as recorded in Genesis,
and from everyday record of the life we observe, descent with modification within the created kinds.
Stories in books are just that, stories in books. Also, "created kinds" is a throwaway term because you have no criteria for detecting created kinds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 709 by CRR, posted 05-26-2017 2:08 AM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 714 by CRR, posted 05-27-2017 11:43 PM Taq has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 713 of 936 (810324)
05-27-2017 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 707 by New Cat's Eye
05-26-2017 12:07 AM


Re: the word Evolution?
NewCat'sEye writes:
Are you retarded?
That's not a very nice thing to say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 707 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-26-2017 12:07 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 715 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-28-2017 9:30 AM Dredge has not replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2261 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 714 of 936 (810329)
05-27-2017 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 712 by Taq
05-26-2017 10:36 AM


Re: the word Evolution?
Taq, as I have shown in other posts there ARE criteria for identifying the bounds of the Kinds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 712 by Taq, posted 05-26-2017 10:36 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 753 by Taq, posted 06-07-2017 3:10 PM CRR has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 715 of 936 (810351)
05-28-2017 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 713 by Dredge
05-27-2017 11:23 PM


Re: the word Evolution?
That's not a very nice thing to say.
Mmhmm, I suppose you were only pretending to be retarded:
quote:
Fuzzy enuf for Darwinist charlatans to play silly-buggers with.
So yeah: FOR

This message is a reply to:
 Message 713 by Dredge, posted 05-27-2017 11:23 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 716 of 936 (811002)
06-04-2017 4:18 AM


Lenski's E-coli are often cited as an example of evolution, but I've noticed that biologists consider it to be some kind of no-no to cite same as evidence that supports the theory that all life shares a common ancestor. Why? Dredge's fraglie egg-shell mind is confused.
Help ... me ... help ... Dredge ... not waving ... drowning ...
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 717 by Tangle, posted 06-04-2017 5:14 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 719 by RAZD, posted 06-04-2017 7:14 AM Dredge has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9503
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 717 of 936 (811003)
06-04-2017 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 716 by Dredge
06-04-2017 4:18 AM


Dredge writes:
Lenski's E-coli are often cited as an example of evolution, but I've noticed that biologists consider it to be some kind of no-no to cite same as evidence that supports the theory that all life shares a common ancestor. Why?
I'll leave Lenski to others.
What's so difficult about common descent such that you don't understand it? You have common descent with your parents and they have with theirs way back in time.
The ToE predicts that that relationship goes back further to include ape descendents and then further to mammals etc etc. This allows diagrams like the tree of life to be drawn showing how all living organisms are related.
No biologists doubts common descent.
The only question is whether there was a single universal common ancestor - one single organism that started all life on earth. There's a lot of evidence for this and the alternative idea of multiple origins is less strong. But note that when biologists talk of multiple origins they're not thinking of seperate origins of chimps and men or cats and dogs, they're talking mostly of micro-organisms. And they're not talking about a few tens of thousand of years ago but million or even billions.
quote:
All known forms of life are based on the same fundamental biochemical organization: genetic information encoded in DNA, transcribed into RNA, through the effect of protein- and RNA-enzymes, then translated into proteins by (highly similar) ribosomes, with ATP, NADPH and others as energy sources, etc. Furthermore, the genetic code (the "translation table" according to which DNA information is translated into proteins) is nearly identical for all known lifeforms, from bacteria and archaea to animals and plants. The universality of this code is generally regarded by biologists as definitive evidence in favor of the theory of universal common descent. Analysis of the small differences in the genetic code has also provided support for universal common descent. An example would be Cytochrome c which most organisms actually share.[16] A statistical comparison of various alternative hypotheses has shown that universal common ancestry is significantly more probable than models involving multiple origins.[1][17]
Common descent - Wikipedia

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Je suis Mancunian.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 716 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2017 4:18 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 718 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2017 5:36 AM Tangle has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 718 of 936 (811004)
06-04-2017 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 717 by Tangle
06-04-2017 5:14 AM


Tangle writes:
No biologist doubts common descent.
I don't doubt "common descent" either ... or "evolution". But I don't accept that humans and chimps share a common ancestor.
wikipedia writes:
All known forms of life are based on the same fundamental biochemical organisation
... which makes perfect sense if all life was created by the same Creator.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 717 by Tangle, posted 06-04-2017 5:14 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 720 by RAZD, posted 06-04-2017 7:16 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 721 by Tangle, posted 06-04-2017 8:05 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 722 by JonF, posted 06-04-2017 9:08 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 723 by ringo, posted 06-04-2017 2:53 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 728 by CRR, posted 06-05-2017 5:43 PM Dredge has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1424 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 719 of 936 (811009)
06-04-2017 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 716 by Dredge
06-04-2017 4:18 AM


Lenski's E-coli are often cited as an example of evolution, but I've noticed that biologists consider it to be some kind of no-no to cite same as evidence that supports the theory that all life shares a common ancestor. Why? ...
It's not a no-no so much as a non-sequitur. The experiments show different lines of anagenesis all starting with one cloned organism and then dividing the offspring of following generation.
Why would it be evidence for "the theory that all life shares a common ancestor" Dredge?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 716 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2017 4:18 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 746 by Dredge, posted 06-07-2017 5:15 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1424 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 720 of 936 (811010)
06-04-2017 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 718 by Dredge
06-04-2017 5:36 AM


wikipedia writes:
All known forms of life are based on the same fundamental biochemical organisation
... which makes perfect sense if all life was created by the same Creator.
So why did the creator make all those genetic markers in just the right places to show common ancestry?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 718 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2017 5:36 AM Dredge has not replied

  
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