Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,585 Year: 2,842/9,624 Month: 687/1,588 Week: 93/229 Day: 4/61 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Debunking the Evolutionary God of 'Selection'
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(2)
Message 97 of 323 (807611)
05-04-2017 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Davidjay
05-04-2017 10:06 AM


All life forms have behaviours, instincts, traits given at Creation..Mutations have nothin g to do with behaviours..
Bullshit! We see all sorts of behavior that is genetic. In fact, instincts are behaviors that are genetically passed on to offspring.
How many times do I have to instruct desperate uninformed evolutionists.
One thing everyone who reads anything you write knows is that you have no knowledge to pass on. A second thing we all know is that you are a rude, arrogant jerk who will never learn anything.
behaviours do not get passed on in genetics...... looking both ways is a learned response...learned responses do not change our DNA...behavoirs are given us humans at birth, from Creation.
Not all behaviors are learned you ignorant pseudocreationist.
This is a science forum and religious mumbo-jumbo doesn't cut it here. If you can't support your arguments with evidence you won't convince anyone.
behavoirs are given us humans at birth, from Creation.
Good grief, grow up. Even third graders know this is BS.
Creation wins
Like I said, "grow up."

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Davidjay, posted 05-04-2017 10:06 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Davidjay, posted 05-04-2017 11:38 AM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 101 by RAZD, posted 05-04-2017 2:07 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 99 of 323 (807635)
05-04-2017 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Davidjay
05-04-2017 11:38 AM


I repeat no behavior changes our DNA. None as in none. Nothing you learn in this lifetime goes into your sexual reproductive DNA,
And I never said it did.
The look both ways behavior must be learned, it doesnt go into the genes.
And I never said it did. No one here said it did.
Instinct is not learned behavior and it is genetic.
Behaviours, instincts, traits etc are given at CREATION and are not mutations.
Prove it. This is a desperate ploy by an ignorant religious fanatic who thinks that if he repeats his empty claims enough times someone, anyone will be convinced.
All variation in our genes is from mutations.
Behaviours are not mutations that just happen to make us more viable..... via the god of insane SELECTION.
We can all see what's insane here.
But evolutionists hate this genetic truth.
Sorry, you are completely ignorant about evolutionists as you are about everything else. Truth is something you have never known.
Evolution and the Theory of Evolution as well as Natural Selection and variations caused by mutations have become a part of human knowledge over the past century and a half and are supported by all the evidence discovered in that time. No evidence refutes them, especially not your ignorant rantings about an imaginary puny creator.
Grow up. Learn something true.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Davidjay, posted 05-04-2017 11:38 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 102 of 323 (807672)
05-04-2017 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by RAZD
05-04-2017 2:07 PM


Re: memes are like genes, inheritable and selectable
Thanks for bringing the voice of reason into the discussion.
Actually I have to side with Davidjay here, not because he is right, but because "looking both ways" is a meme - a behavior taught by parents to young.
As you say, a 'meme' or new memory, but not passed on in the genes.
The parental behavior observed in humans and many other species of teaching offspring is what I would describe as an instinctive behavior that is passed on in the genes.
In entomology, I have had many discussions with colleagues about how behavior is all genetically programmed into insects. It appears that certain stimuli cause cascades of chemical reactions and release of neurotransmitters that result in specific behaviors.
When I observe complex territorial and mating behavior of dragonflies in the field I am always amazed at how complex and multivariate it is, almost as if they are conscious thought driven organisms rather than little biological robots. (That is where I really should be right now....2nd nice day in a row....

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by RAZD, posted 05-04-2017 2:07 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Davidjay, posted 05-07-2017 11:07 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 106 of 323 (807980)
05-07-2017 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Davidjay
05-07-2017 11:07 AM


Re: memes are like genes, inheritable and selectable
Instincts are not from mutations, or from learned behaviours
Correct. We all agree.
Mutations do not bring on learned behaviours...
If you mean mutations do not "cause" learned behavior, then this is so obvious that we all agree.
and learned behaviours are not passed onto new generations of insects or humans.
We all agree with this also.
No one responding to you, is claiming any of the 3 things you just listed are passed on genetically or have anything to do with mutations.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I JUST WROTE?
NONE OF US CLAIM OR THINK ANYTHING LEARNED BY ANY ANIMALS, INCLUDING HUMANS, ARE PASSED ON GENETICALLY OR ARE RELATED TO MUTATIONS.
GOT IT?
Instincts are implanted in the original species.
Now see, when you just make an unsupported declaration like this, you just demonstrate that you don't know what you are talking about. It is a completely pointless statement that undermines your credibility.
Birds do not learn to fly by the stars, nor do fish learn to smell their original rivers and streams, nor do the myriad of insticts and behaviours that define a KIND just happen to magically get into their DNA.
We agree that NO MAGIC WAS INVOLVED.
I repeat learned behaviour does not go into our genes, never has, never will. A species does not get more educated and brighter and more viable via mutations or supposed evolution.
AND I REPEAT, WE AGREE THAT LEARNED BEHAVIOR IS NOT ADDED TO OUR GENES.
Its just a theory in the minds of insect-ologists who have been in the fields way toooo long.
I prefer "bugologist." There is no such thing as too much field time to a true bugologist.
Sexual genes are not influenced by what happens to a species or KIND in their lifetime and in their experiences while alive.
I disagree, because the fate and longevity of sexual genes is directly affected by which organisms in a population survive and pass on more or fewer copies of their genes.
Sexual genes are directly affected by whether the individuals carrying them are selected for or against. We call this natural selection.
Mother Nature does not select as if alive, beneficial mutations or beneficials behaviours........ its just too much pollen in the noses of those that have gotten too close to the god of evolution and selection
Mother Nature is another odd imaginary mythical/god entity.
The phenotypes carrying beneficial mutations or exhibiting beneficial behaviors may be able to avoid being eaten by living predators long enough to produce more offspring carrying those beneficial mutations and beneficial behaviors.
We call this natural selection.
its just too much pollen in the noses of those that have gotten too close to the god of evolution and selection
This communicates nothing except maybe that you got little educational benefit from your athletic scholarship.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Davidjay, posted 05-07-2017 11:07 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Davidjay, posted 05-09-2017 9:41 AM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 112 by Davidjay, posted 05-09-2017 9:48 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 123 of 323 (808293)
05-09-2017 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Davidjay
05-09-2017 9:41 AM


Re: Learned behaviour is not added to our genes BREAK THROUGH
But there it is, and we will repeat this GIVEN and principle from basic genetics, that totally destroys evolutionary theory.
You silly little troll. You have absolutely no idea what evolutionary theory is, let alone what would destroy it. The theory of evolution is not going to be destroyed by your lies.
The God of Selection does not select beneficial mutations.....
There is no such thing as the god of selection. I realize that religion has addled your brain, but natural selection is just environmental factors sorting which phenotypic variations in a population leave more offspring and which do not.
no learned behaviour passes on to the next generation.
We have already been over this. You really are a broken record, aren't you?
No behaviour changes because of magical mutations.
Pay attention, we have told you numerous time that there is no such thing as magic, therefore there are no "magic" mutations.
Mystery solved, even though its straight forward genetics from Level 1 University studies.
No, for you the mystery remains. Why don't you know even the most rudimentary basic principles of biology and evolution since you claim to have a degree in biology?
Edited by Tanypteryx, : spelling

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Davidjay, posted 05-09-2017 9:41 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 154 of 323 (808634)
05-11-2017 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by CRR
05-11-2017 6:09 PM


Re: ring species
Human adult lactose tolerance is an example of a mutation that has spread but has not increased genetic information.
So you are saying that if the prior genetic character in adult humans was lactose intolerance, and now there are two genetic characters in the population, lactose intolerance and lactose tolerance, but nothing has changed?
Two characters is the same as one character? Really?
Nylonase is another example where natural selection has fine tuned an existing enzyme to improve its activity on nylon.
Can you describe the process of natural selection that "fine-tuned" an enzyme to improve its activity on nylon?
Did natural selection actually tweak the enzyme molecule?
Is the unaltered enzyme molecule still produced in the population?
Mutations can be selected for and fixed in populations but are they information adding?
Creationists put a lot of importance on gain and loss of "genetic information".
What would be the impact if they did not add information?
What would be the impact if they did add information?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 6:09 PM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 9:35 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 162 of 323 (808652)
05-11-2017 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by CRR
05-11-2017 9:35 PM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
So, in Message 151 you said:
CRR writes:
Human adult lactose tolerance is an example of a mutation that has spread but has not increased genetic information.
Then in Message 154 I asked:
quote:
So you are saying that if the prior genetic character in adult humans was lactose intolerance, and now there are two genetic characters in the population, lactose intolerance and lactose tolerance, but nothing has changed?
Two characters is the same as one character? Really?
Now you say in Message 157:
All mammals are born lactose tolerant so they can digest their mother's milk. This normally switches off after weaning. Human adult lactose tolerance is simply a case of a broken switch.
This doesn't answer my question so I will ask again. Are there now two alleles for lactose tolerance, one that is switched off in adults and one continues producing lactase in adults?
You implied that natural selection changed the gene that controls the production of nylonase:
Nylonase is another example where natural selection has fine tuned an existing enzyme to improve its activity on nylon.
You didn't answer my questions but instead posted a quote from a creationist website.
quote:
"This is the story of a pre-existing enzyme with a low level of promiscuous nylonase activity, which improved its activity toward nylon by first one, then another selectable mutation. In other words this is a completely plausible case of gene duplication, mutation, and selection operating on a pre-existing enzyme to improve a pre-existing low-level activity, exactly the kind of event that Meyer and Axe specifically acknowledge as a possibility, given the time and probabilistic resources available. Indeed, the origin of nylonase actually provides a nice example of the optimization of a pre-existing fold’s function, not the innovation or creation of a novel fold."
Here are my questions again.
Can you describe the process of natural selection that "fine-tuned" an enzyme to improve its activity on nylon?
Did natural selection actually tweak the enzyme molecule?
Is the unaltered enzyme molecule still produced in the population?
Wouldn't fine-tuning require changes to the original gene that would mean that there is a new gene, consequently an addition of information?
I also note that you ignored this part of my post:
Tanypteryx writes:
CRR writes:
Mutations can be selected for and fixed in populations but are they information adding?
Creationists put a lot of importance on gain and loss of "genetic information".
What would be the impact if they did not add information?
What would be the impact if they did add information?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 9:35 PM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by CRR, posted 05-12-2017 12:54 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 181 of 323 (808729)
05-12-2017 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by CRR
05-12-2017 9:42 AM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
There are several mutations are cause a loss of genetic information but which have a net benefit in particular circumstance. Lactose tolerance is one. So are many cases of antibiotic and insecticide resistance. So to some extent is sickle cell trait.
You don't seem to understand what is actually happening to the gene. You have an original gene in the population that has some function. A mutation occurs in the gene that changes its function and if it is beneficial it is selected and passed on to future offspring.
The population contained one gene and now there are two genes. You are saying that two is less than one.
We often see a mutation where a gene is duplicated and the duplicate can be further mutated to have a brand new function. this would be a rather obvious "increase in genetic information."
It is detrimental where there is no access to dairy products which explains why there is a close correlation between dairying and adult lactose tolerance.
How is it detrimental? The lack of milk might be detrimental, but can you show that adult lactose tolerance leads to fewer offspring?
Evolution by losing genetic information is downhill and would be a valid argument if you are saying that bacteria evolved from people but it doesn't work if you propose that people evolved from bacteria.
Whew, luckily no one is proposing either. By bacteria, I assume you mean single celled organism. The theory of evolution does not propose that people evolved from single celled organisms. People evolved from their ancestors, who evolved from their ancestors and so on.
Single celled organisms evolved into more complex single celled organisms and eventually evolved into multi-cellular organisms that evolved more and more complexity. This happened more than a billion years ago, so saying people evolved from bacteria is not only incorrect but ignores a billion years of the history of life.
It is an ad hominem attack to not assess the referenced article because it is on a website you don't approve of.
No it isn't. The discovery institute is a creationist organization that performs no scientific research. They may have tried to re-brand themselves, but the wedge document clearly states their agenda.
I ignore their propaganda because it only consists of attacks on evolution, not reports of scientific research.
The Discovery Institute is not making any discoveries.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by CRR, posted 05-12-2017 9:42 AM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by CRR, posted 05-14-2017 8:50 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 183 of 323 (808733)
05-12-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by CRR
05-12-2017 12:54 AM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
CRR writes:
It is the theory of evolution that relies on the gain of copious quantities of genetic information. Creationists are just asking how the theory can be taken seriously when the evidence is that the mutation selection mechanism appears to be insufficient to explain where that information comes from.
RAZD answered this before I got a chance, quite eloquently I might add Message 168:
RAZD writes:
Curiously that is a creationist claim, and a falsehood. The theory of evolution could not give squat about "copious quantities of genetic information" -- just mutation and selection, things we see occurring every day.
In addition, your reference to "copious quantities of genetic information" means nothing until you can measure and quantify "information" and actually show increases and decreases. That's one of the ways we know that evolution science doesn't care about it. The other reason is that evolution appears to work very well without any measurement of pseudo-parameters like "information" -- just what actually happens.
CRR writes:
See my replies to Coyote about ad hominem attacks.
Care to show me where I made any such attack?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by CRR, posted 05-12-2017 12:54 AM CRR has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 192 of 323 (808889)
05-14-2017 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Davidjay
05-14-2017 10:19 AM


Re: Re:Answer the question, Are babies different now than before
"evolionists" hope we are all different and branching
Ah, I see the problem now.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Davidjay, posted 05-14-2017 10:19 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 204 of 323 (808922)
05-14-2017 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by CRR
05-14-2017 8:50 PM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
The population contained one gene and now there are two genes.
You don't seem to understand what is actually happening to the gene, at least in the case of lactase. There is no new gene. At best there is a new allele of the gene.
Yeah and now there twice as many alleles of that gene as there were before. This has increased the genome of the population.
This is one of the ways that variation is increased.
This is one of the ways that information, that creationist are so fixated on, increases.
Even in the case of Nylonase it is not as once proposed a new gene created by a frameshift mutation but only a duplication and fine tuning of an existing gene that already had some activity on nylon.
Wow, you are starting to get it. This is one of the well documented ways that new genes are created.
This increases the size of the genome of a population. And this sort of mutation is happening to multiple genes in every generation in many individuals and it adds a tremendous amount of new variation over time.
How is it [adult lactose detrimental] detrimental [where there is n access to dairy products]?
There is a metabolic cost of maintaining production of an enzyme that is no longer being used. That's why it is normal for lactase production to be switched off after weaning.
Really? My understanding is that lactase is not produced until lactose presence triggers a regulatory switch.
The theory of evolution does not propose that people evolved from single celled organisms.
Yes it does, as you showed in the next paragraph. It proposes that man evolved from microbes through a long chain of intermediates.
Yeah, an incredibly long chain of intermediaries and it took a billion years or more.
Leaving all that out of the statement is a classic creationist ploy to try to make the evolution of all life sound as simple minded as the magic poof.
The Discovery Institute is a creationist organization...
No it's not. At best you could characterise it as being theistic evolutionist but the people at Biologos who claim to be theistic evolutionists would probably object to that. DI has many "faiths" in its following including agnostics.
They may have conned you, but if they were doing science they would have convinced the rest of us already.
...that performs no scientific research.
Again false, as you can confirm by clicking the Research tab on Center for Science and Culture | Discovery Institute#
The Biologic Institute is a non-profit research organization founded in 2005.
The Evolutionary Informatics Lab is a group of STEM (science/technology/engineer/math) professionals who focus on the role of information in the modeling and analysis of evolutionary processes and related phenomena.
Wowee. I have read some of their blogs.
They also provide research grants and fellowships and publish in peer reviewed scientific publications as well as publishing Bio-Complexity journal.
That sounds wonderful. Of course you have to sign a contract that you accept the 'Wedge Document", before you get a grant or a fellowship.
Can you show us some papers by Discovery Institute members, associates, whatever, about Discovery Institutes research published in peer reviewed journals?
Publishing your own journal (Bio-Complexity) has as much scientific credibility as publishing a news letter.
I understand that you might have swallowed some propaganda against DI but I trust that now you know better you will desist from spreading that propaganda.
And I understand that you might have swallowed some propaganda from DI and I don't expect you to ever realize what happened.
DI showed the whole world what they were about during the Dover Trial. I have read their propaganda and it convinced me that they are just creationists who have tried to (unsuccessfully) re-brand themselves.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by CRR, posted 05-14-2017 8:50 PM CRR has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 242 of 323 (810706)
05-31-2017 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Tangle
05-31-2017 9:25 PM


CRR writes:
The evolutionary god of selection is long dead.
You finally said something we all agree with.
The irony......it burns like a redhot poker.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2017 9:25 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024