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Author Topic:   Debunking the Evolutionary God of 'Selection'
Tangle
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Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 8 of 323 (806065)
04-22-2017 2:02 PM


I'm going to regret this.
Up to the industrial revolution the peppered moth was white with black speckles. It was camouflaged against birch trees covered with lichen where it rested during the day.
During the industrial revolution in the North of England the trees turned black - covered with soot from the burning of coal in the big industrial towns. The white moths became visible and were heavily predated by birds. Alongside the normal white moths there was an infrequently occurring black mutation.
The white declined and the black increased in numbers because it became camouflaged against the sooty background. The first black peppered moth was found in 1848 and by 1895 98% of them were black.
This is a very clear example of natural selection. The frequecy of occurrence of the black and white variants was controlled by predation which in turn was determine by environmental changes.
When the climate changed back as the Clean Air Act was introduced in Britain the trees lost their soot and the reverse happened. The black moths now stood out against the clean bark and the frequency of white moths increased.
Again natural selection at work.
What's more, molecular geneticists have recently found the gene and the mutation responsible for the changes.
That's the evolution story described fully in one species - descent with modification by mutation and natural selection.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Davidjay, posted 04-23-2017 9:41 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 14 of 323 (806109)
04-23-2017 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
04-22-2017 6:14 PM


Re: Probability
Phat writes:
Probability and chance are two different things.
The probablity of a tossed coin coming up heads is 0.5
The chance of a tossed coin coming up heads is 0.5
The difference being what?
We can prove that probability exists...but I'd like to see the proof
I predict that if you toss a fair coin 1,000 times half of them will come up heads.
There's your proof.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 04-22-2017 6:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by JonF, posted 04-23-2017 9:25 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 04-24-2017 8:25 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 16 of 323 (806138)
04-23-2017 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by JonF
04-23-2017 9:25 AM


Re: Probability
Something near to half of them will come up heads, but the probability of any one specific outcome is 1/2 raised to the power of the number of trials.
I knew someone would quibble with that, I was trying to keep it simple - t's going to be 500 heads plus or minus a small number.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by JonF, posted 04-23-2017 9:25 AM JonF has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 22 of 323 (806156)
04-23-2017 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Davidjay
04-23-2017 9:41 AM


Davidjay writes:
I heard the supposed moth evolution, maybe forty years ago.
Yes, it's a very famous example of natural selection. It was updated only a few months ago because the mutation that caused the colour change has now been found, identified and dated.
Please study genetics, colour change is not evolution. Its dominant/recessive colour genes, just as humans have different skin colors when interbreeding among their own KIND.
Please see above. The colour change was not due to the usual variability in the genotype, it was caused by a mutation.
But forget about that. Let's say that it was simple variation that caused the colour change. Can you accept that the birds caused the population to change colour by selecting the moths that were no longer camouflaged? There were only white moths then the environment changed and the black moths appeared and became dominant, then the environment changed again and the white moth became dominant again.
This thread is about natural selection, the moth shows how it works.
Yes, its sad thast evolutionists use these moths as their fundamental excuse for thinking moths become a different KIND.
The moth does not become a different 'kind', it's still a moth. This is a relatively small change a very short time ago. The example is to show you how natural selection has caused a change to the moth's population.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Davidjay, posted 04-23-2017 9:41 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 23 of 323 (806158)
04-23-2017 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Davidjay
04-23-2017 9:45 AM


Davidjay writes:
There have been no beneficial mutations, thats a pipe dream of evolutionists.
I've just shown you one David. A real live observed beneficial mutation. How do you deny this? Here's the paper if you need it, sadly it's behind a paywall but the abstract tells you all you really need to know.
quote:
Discovering the mutational events that fuel adaptation to environmental change remains an important challenge for evolutionary biology. The classroom example of a visible evolutionary response is industrial melanism in the peppered moth (Biston betularia): the replacement, during the Industrial Revolution, of the common pale typica form by a previously unknown black (carbonaria) form, driven by the interaction between bird predation and coal pollution1. The carbonaria locus has been coarsely localized to a 200-kilobase region, but the specific identity and nature of the sequence difference controlling the carbonaria—typica polymorphism, and the gene it influences, are unknown2. Here we show that the mutation event giving rise to industrial melanism in Britain was the insertion of a large, tandemly repeated, transposable element into the first intron of the gene cortex. Statistical inference based on the distribution of recombined carbonaria haplotypes indicates that this transposition event occurred around 1819, consistent with the historical record. We have begun to dissect the mode of action of the carbonaria transposable element by showing that it increases the abundance of a cortex transcript, the protein product of which plays an important role in cell-cycle regulation, during early wing disc development. Our findings fill a substantial knowledge gap in the iconic example of microevolutionary change, adding a further layer of insight into the mechanism of adaptation in response to natural selection. The discovery that the mutation itself is a transposable element will stimulate further debate about the importance of ‘jumping genes’ as a source of major phenotypic novelty3.
The industrial melanism mutation in British peppered moths is a transposable element | Nature

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Davidjay, posted 04-23-2017 9:45 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 24 of 323 (806159)
04-23-2017 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Davidjay
04-23-2017 10:11 AM


Re: BACK TO THE TOPIC !
Davidjay writes:
The topic is selection, sometimes called natural selection, as evolutionists do love to use semantics and double speak as if selection is natural. And they love to infer that NATURural is part of NATURE, or from the beginning, as they directly or indirectly worship MOTHER NATURE, as did their religious ancestors. Their are basically animists in their philosphy and religion.
David, it's called natural selection only to differentiate it from mam-made selection, ie breeding. The selection is being made by nature.
An example is the birds eating moths that are no longer camouflaged. It's a very straightforward idea that can be demonstrated and observed.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Davidjay, posted 04-23-2017 10:11 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Davidjay, posted 04-23-2017 11:26 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 33 of 323 (806188)
04-23-2017 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Davidjay
04-23-2017 11:26 AM


Re: BACK TO THE TOPIC !
Davidjay writes:
Tangle, again color change is not evolution, nor a mutational change of significance, its called VARIATION in colour....as life selects life, and the colour change makes them more hidden than the other colours
Forget mutation for the moment - this is a discussion about natural selection.
Do you accept that changes in the environment caused the population of moths to change colour, first to black and then back to white? Do you accept that the mechanism that caused it was the selective predation?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Davidjay, posted 04-23-2017 11:26 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 38 of 323 (806196)
04-23-2017 5:08 PM


I don't think you guys are helping......
The probability/chance of a head is 50:50; p=0.5. A thousand tosses will give you 500 heads, give or take a few.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Chiroptera, posted 04-23-2017 5:24 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 47 of 323 (806306)
04-24-2017 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Davidjay
04-24-2017 11:48 AM


Re: Evolutionists cant defend their god of Selection
Davidjay writes:
As a good and honest debater I always try to answer questions to further the debate.
Perhaps you could get around to answering mine?
And if you could do it using quotes and without the posturing and preaching it would be great too.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Davidjay, posted 04-24-2017 11:48 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 66 of 323 (806369)
04-25-2017 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
04-24-2017 8:25 PM


Re: Probability
Phat writes:
The coin cannot toss itself. If tossed, the probability becomes a mathematical actuality, due to the fact that a force caused the momentum.
Chance implies that the force itself came about by chance.
Probability is always measurable to a concrete degree, while chance is merely unproven theory.
This is a bit silly Phat. Chance and probability have the same meaning in normal use.
In summation, chance in and of itself has no power to do anything. It is simply a term...every bit as useless as godidit. Believers ascribe power to God. The same cannot even be hypothesized in regards to chance---in and of itself.
No one ascribes any sort of external power to chance - it's just a description of how some things come about. A coin landing heads for example is chance. 50:50 in this case.
If you're trying to go along with the usual nonsense of evolution being simply chance, you're as wrong as they are. Chance plays a role but selection decides it.
How come we have to do this over and over and over?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 04-24-2017 8:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(2)
Message 153 of 323 (808633)
05-11-2017 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by CRR
05-11-2017 5:58 PM


Re: ring species
CRR writes:
Darwin used many examples of animal breeding to support his arguments for natural selection.
Yes, he saw how features could become prevalent if there was something that selected for them. The lightbulb was that nature could do it too. Rather brilliant.
Since humans are part of nature then deliberate selection by humans is a form of natural selection.
That's really crass. If we include people and our technology as 'natural', the 'natural' has lost its biological meaning.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 5:58 PM CRR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 208 of 323 (808938)
05-15-2017 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by CRR
05-14-2017 8:50 PM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
CRR writes:
The Discovery Institute is a creationist organization...
No it's not. At best you could characterise it as being theistic evolutionist but the people at Biologos who claim to be theistic evolutionists would probably object to that. DI has many "faiths" in its following including agnostics.
quote:
Governing Goals [of the Discovery Institute]
To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God.
The Wedge Document | National Center for Science Education

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by CRR, posted 05-14-2017 8:50 PM CRR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(2)
Message 241 of 323 (810702)
05-31-2017 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by CRR
05-31-2017 5:41 PM


CRR writes:
The evolutionary god of selection is long dead.
You finally said something we all agree with.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by CRR, posted 05-31-2017 5:41 PM CRR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-31-2017 10:28 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 243 of 323 (810708)
05-31-2017 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by CRR
05-31-2017 5:41 PM


Dedge writes:
The evolutionary god of selection is long dead.
What is your alternate explanation for the selection demonstrated by the peppered moth example?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by CRR, posted 05-31-2017 5:41 PM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by CRR, posted 06-01-2017 1:33 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 246 of 323 (810725)
06-01-2017 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by CRR
06-01-2017 1:33 AM


CRR writes:
Try reading the first line of my post Message 240
Then why post this crap?
quote:
The evolutionary god of selection is long dead.
  —CRR
Creationists readily accept that selection happens.
That simply isn't true is it? Why not ask the guy you were replying to.
Selection by itself produces nothing new but it can produce a change in the frequency in existing traits in the population over time.
Equivocation. It can do that, it can also select for beneficial mutations as demonstrated rather beautifully in the peppered moth work. Your fox has been shot.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by CRR, posted 06-01-2017 1:33 AM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Davidjay, posted 06-01-2017 9:30 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 251 by CRR, posted 06-01-2017 5:33 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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