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Author Topic:   Debunking the Evolutionary God of 'Selection'
Tangle
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Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(2)
Message 254 of 323 (810840)
06-02-2017 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by CRR
06-01-2017 5:46 PM


Re: Peppered moths are color change and not evolutionary change
CRR writes:
The peppered moth is an example of equivocation used by evolutionists.
Evolution is true because we have witnessed evolution in the Peppered Moth.
implying that
[All living forms have come from a single common ancestor] is true because we have witnessed [a change in frequency of existing traits in a population over time] in the Peppered Moth.
Why do creationists have to lie like this? It's a very unChristian trait.
Biologists use the peppered moth as a clear example of all the core aspects of evolutionary theory - descent with modification driven by natural selection. Added to which we now have the new knowledge that the modification of the phenotype was caused by a mutation that was beneficial. It's primarily a teaching aid, it's only brought up here because we're dealing with people with childlike misunderstandings of basic biological processes.
This equivocation may not be intentional in many cases but the listener is led to believe that one follows from the other. This is a problem with the word having such a wide range of meanings.
More bullshit. No one but those desiring to be is misled by these terms.
Yes the Peppered moth shows evolution in the second sense but not in the first. The responsibility lies with the evolutionists to disambiguate the word "evolution".
Even more bullshit. The ToE does not say that all life comes from a common ancestor, let alone the case study of the peppered moth. Why keep lying when we've explained this over and over?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by CRR, posted 06-01-2017 5:46 PM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Davidjay, posted 06-03-2017 6:10 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 257 by CRR, posted 06-05-2017 3:30 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 258 of 323 (811090)
06-05-2017 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by CRR
06-05-2017 3:25 AM


Re: Fire flies, cameleons
CRR writes:
The type of selection shown in the Peppered Moth will never result in a new type of moth, let alone a non-moth.
If you'd stopped before making this unfounded assertion or simply said that the result of the beneficial mutation and subsequent natural selection did not result in speciation you would have made a series of evidence based objective comments.
Instead you let your irrational bias spoil it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Je suis Mancunian.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by CRR, posted 06-05-2017 3:25 AM CRR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 265 of 323 (811337)
06-07-2017 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Vlad
06-07-2017 9:40 AM


Re: semantic twaddle
^^^ Well that's a whole pile of jumbled words. Try explaining what you mean rather than making a heap of assertions.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Vlad, posted 06-07-2017 9:40 AM Vlad has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 278 of 323 (811446)
06-08-2017 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Vlad
06-08-2017 9:14 AM


Re: Biston betularia
Vlad writes:
Of course, the peppered moth case clearly reveals the operation of natural selection among gene alleles.
Good, that's a start. It's also worth adding that we now know that the selection wasn't just from existing genes, it was from a gene that had mutated - a beneficial mutation.
In the process of microevolution, the moth got darker, then later it got lighter. At that, it remained the same Biston betularia
Yeh, it stayed a moth; that's what microevolution is.
while the crucial question of evolution is: how did Biston betularia originated?
Well unless there's something magical about a peppered moth, it got here through a process of evolution like all other life on earth.
Are you trying to say that speciation is impossible?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Vlad, posted 06-08-2017 9:14 AM Vlad has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 296 of 323 (811656)
06-10-2017 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by Vlad
06-10-2017 8:18 AM


Re: Random Darwinian NS
Vlad writes:
And let me recall that Darwinian NS is non-existent, in the world of sexual reproduction (to be duly substantiated).
Peppered moth.
Besides, professor Orr doesn’t notice that Darwinian NS, in his exercise, only erases genetic information — quite valuable, at times. At that, selection creates no new genetic information. A shame.
Peppered moth.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Vlad, posted 06-10-2017 8:18 AM Vlad has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 317 of 323 (812830)
06-20-2017 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Vlad
06-20-2017 8:33 AM


Re: Selection
Vlad writes:
NS didn’t manage to maintain a simple and demanded improvement, in many millions of years.
Dawkins actually said 'obvious' not 'simple'. I can't see [sic] how aquiring a lens is 'simple' but I can see that it would be obviously useful.
But the 'obvious' point is that evolution doesn't care what's obvious, or even what's a necessity. All this anthropomorphical talk is confusing you - evolution deals with things that are good enough, Nautilus's eye is good enough to survive - by demonstration, had it not been, it would not be on our species list.
Evolution happens by a random process of mutation followed by a selection. Who knows how many, or if any, times a lens popped up in Nautilus's long ancestry - it needn't happen at all, and the anti-evolutionists say that it can't happen, - or it could have happened but there was no selection pressure for it, or animals carrying the trait just didn't survive.
The point is that evolution is not a certainty; in life's lottery there's no guarantee at all that any organisms will evolve anything, let alone the same things as other organisms. Its not possible for an organism to steal an organ from another - that's what a designer/creator would do, not what evolution can do. That's why we have hundreds of thousands of species not just one.
And that's real evidence for evolution and real evidence against creation. Thanks for the example.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Vlad, posted 06-20-2017 8:33 AM Vlad has not replied

  
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