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Author Topic:   Y.E.C. Model: Was there rapid evolution and speciation post flood?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 349 of 518 (810724)
06-01-2017 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by Faith
06-01-2017 3:38 AM


Re: falling into place
You haven't said anything that shows that multiple alleles are beneficial though you say they are, meaning their scattering effect. I see nothing good about it.
Your statement is inaccurate. I described my reasoning and provided examples. So yes I have said something that shows that multiple alleles are beneficial. If you choose to disagree, that's fine. It would probably have been at least good form to address the arguments that were presented.
Selected protection in specific locales, of fur color or disease or whatever, is just as possible with the two-allele system and that system is a lot more efficient overall.
So you assert without much discussion. And again, the problem is that we have a functioning two, three, and more allele system in existence.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 3:38 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 352 of 518 (810737)
06-01-2017 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 345 by Faith
06-01-2017 1:00 AM


Re: Not trashed at all, in fact falling more clearly into place
How can their mere existence trash the idea that multiple alleles are detrimental?
1) I have explained how multiple alleles can be positive. They allow folks to take advantage of environmental niches where a particular allele gives the advantageous phenotype even if that allele provides some disadvantages.
2) We have examples of thriving multiple alleles genes. It is pretty difficult to insist in that case that the mechanism is debilitating. In trying to argue that something else is more efficient and therefore the multiple allele scheme cannot exist. You are literally trying to discredit what is actually observed to be helpful.
3. The multiple alleles with different functions demonstrate exactly what evolution folks have been saying about evolution and you have been denying. Have you forgotten why we started the listing of multiple alleles genes in the first place? Now that the examples have been presented, you elected to moving the goal posts to somewhere that nobody other than you cares about.
this time accepting that there are SOME functioning mutant alleles
Great. Don't care about the rest of your post.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 1:00 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 11:55 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 359 of 518 (810760)
06-01-2017 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by jar
06-01-2017 8:54 AM


Re: falling into place
Yes, what is seen in reality is variety.
Faith is literally arguing that evolution through mutation and selection would produce too much diversity. Surely long time posters will see some irony in that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by jar, posted 06-01-2017 8:54 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 361 of 518 (810766)
06-01-2017 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Faith
06-01-2017 11:55 AM


Re: Not trashed at all, in fact falling more clearly into place
It seems clear to me that the insistence on its normality and health is based only on belief in the ToE, even acceptance of the incredible sloppiness of the system due to mistake after mistake after mistake.
Saying something is clear is not an argument. You are simply doubling down on an assertion.
The multiple alleles do nothing good for a species.
Except when they do. To the extent diversity is a good "dna-survival" strategy, multiple alleles accomplishes just that. It is not perfect, but it works well enough that we can observe multiple alleles in the human population and in others.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 11:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 12:33 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 365 of 518 (810771)
06-01-2017 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Faith
06-01-2017 12:33 PM


Re: Not trashed at all, in fact falling more clearly into place
What led me to the two-allele gene was the recognition that it is sufficient to produce all the diversity that exists and then some. That makes multiple alleles at least unnecessary.
Quite obviously two-alleles provides less diversity than is possible with three alleles, and in some cases we know we have more. Your "sufficiency" is a sham.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 12:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 2:07 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 367 of 518 (810787)
06-01-2017 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Faith
06-01-2017 2:07 PM


Re: Not trashed at all, in fact falling more clearly into place
'm talking about a system of many genes with two alleles.
Sigh. I suppose I need to spell out the obvious...
We don't have to choose between those. We have both a system where multiple genes can affect some traits and a system where some traits are determined by multiple alleles at one location and some combinations of the two for things like skin color and eye color. The problem with your argument is that the multiple allele portions of reality are incompatible with an Adam and Eve scenario and in some cases even the post-Noah scenario unless beneficial mutations are allowed. Now that you have conceded that point, you have weakened one of your arguments against evolution. Namely that there are no such things as beneficial mutations.
So you are wrong. Adding alleles to the multiple gene situation increases diversity. Even if there were an exact duplication of a multi-gene phenotype, and generally there is not, there become multiple pathways to reach advantageous phenotypes. And that two counts as diversity and more rigor. And of course. in at least some cases, new advantages are realized.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 2:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 7:23 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 379 of 518 (810810)
06-01-2017 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by Faith
06-01-2017 7:23 PM


Re: Not trashed at all, in fact falling more clearly into place
t does not make any sense to have BOTH systems. For one thing the original can no longer function well if at all because of the miserable mess of extra alleles that replace the originals in a great many individuals.
Faith, we already have both systems. That's been demonstrated with examples. It does not make sense to complain that what we have does not make sense. It works to add diversity to a system that does not have multiple (more than two) alleles for single genes. Thanks for playing.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 7:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 10:11 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 381 of 518 (810826)
06-01-2017 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by Faith
06-01-2017 10:11 PM


Re: Not trashed at all, in fact falling more clearly into place
OK I'll say it again. 1) The systems are in conflict, the multiple alleles interfere with the original system.
That is your claim at least. There is no conflict at all. Both structures can lead to increased diversity. In fact if a mutation disables one mode, the other can produce a similar phenotype in at least some situations. They are complementary.
You have not shown any way that having two systems causes problems.
And 2) It does not add diversity if all the "new" sequences are just repetitions of existing sequences,
But this is not just assertion. It is noise. The sequence with multiple genes that can occupy a single location is different from entirely different genes at multiple locations on a chromosome. What can be similar is the phenotype that results.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 10:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by Faith, posted 06-02-2017 5:10 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 397 of 518 (810875)
06-02-2017 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by Faith
06-02-2017 8:56 AM


Re: falling into place
Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it.
This is yet another keeper...

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Faith, posted 06-02-2017 8:56 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 398 of 518 (810877)
06-02-2017 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by herebedragons
06-02-2017 8:42 AM


Re: Multiple Alleles an Inefficient System
God created Adam and Eve with all the necessary genes and alleles to allow their immune system to fight off any pathogen that may attempt to invade their bodies.
With said necessary alleles being no more than two per gene...

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by herebedragons, posted 06-02-2017 8:42 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 399 of 518 (810878)
06-02-2017 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Percy
06-02-2017 9:36 AM


Re: falling into place
At the known human mutation rate there has not been enough time since Adam and Eve for all these alleles to arise, let alone spread through the population
Which suggest that the creation theory does require rapid evolution, but perhaps not speciation based on this line of argument. Maybe Faith can agree with that at least?
[ snip lots of things said very well and that I agree with ]
It is known that they bind to different antigens.
Where "they" (I think) means the anti-bodies produced as a result of a particular genetic makeup. The antecedent for "they" does not appear in this message and does not readily appear in the message sequence.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Percy, posted 06-02-2017 9:36 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 407 of 518 (810997)
06-03-2017 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by Faith
06-03-2017 3:46 PM


Re: YEC requires selection on mutants
If there are too many mutations to have occurred in the last 4500 years since the Ark, what can I do but assume that for some reason they occurred a lot faster than usual since then
Which turns out to be one of the two questions asked in the title of this discussion.
I see mutations as mistakes.
I don't think there is anything wrong with that view. The theory of evolution does not consider those mutations to be purposeful, and what is being said in this thread is that mutations are copying errors.
You don't need selection to increase the number of a certain allele in the population
Sigh.
1) Selection does nothing of the sort. That is not a mechanism for increasing alleles or genetic diversity.
2) We don't need to make excuses for something that actually exists. We know that some genes have multiple alleles.
if it does the same thing as the original alleles or SOME original allele somewhere in the original system
So what original gene provides protection against malaria so that there is no need for a mutation? Again you seem to be describing some kind of purposeful action when you know that mutations are errors/mistakes. That thinking is not logical.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Faith, posted 06-03-2017 3:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Faith, posted 06-04-2017 12:01 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 409 of 518 (811000)
06-04-2017 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 408 by Faith
06-04-2017 12:01 AM


Re: YEC requires selection on mutants
You seem to have missed the point given by bluegenes and others that selection is what causes the proliferation of a mutant allele, that is, causes its "relatively high frequency" in a population.
You are correct. I misread your statement. When you said "You don't need selection to increase the number of a certain allele in the population" you were correct that selection is what is claimed to be responsible the increasing
And you are also correct that things that are not really selection can do the same. Anything that makes a subset of a population could have a random affect on the distribution including events for which phenotype plays no role at all. The problem is that such subsetting cannot explain traits produced by multiple allele genes and there are at least some example of those. There is also the point that any resulting phenotype changes not based on selection are totally random.
I don't know. I don't know if anybody knows. All that's being discussed on this thread is the mutant alleles.
That is because the existence of mutant alleles is central to the topic. Presumably any number of alleles greater than two for a location means a mutant allele. The significant idea here is that evidence has been provided for mutation providing new, functionality; something that Creations have denied even being possible in past discussions.
I take it that you don't have any examples of the malaria resistance other than that provided by mutant alleles. But even if there were, if it does not use the same mechanism as the ones we know about, then the mutant alleles still have a novel functionality.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by Faith, posted 06-04-2017 12:01 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 412 of 518 (811045)
06-04-2017 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by Faith
06-04-2017 1:22 PM


Re: YEC requires selection on mutants
Again, the original function needs to be known and I don't recall that being identified. If it was I missed it. Please repeat it or link to it.
This statement is nonsense. ABO Blood type is completely specified by the three alleles. Nothing else is a factor.
Beyond that, it does not matter if there is another gene or genes that can offer the same gross functionality. The hereditary patterns are going to be completely different if the mutant alleles are added. This requirement is literally an attempt to deny the mutant alleles are real alleles for no good reason.
If all the alleles do is what original alleles did there wouldn't be any selection.
Wrong. It is correct that there could not be selection between identical phenotypes. However, there can be selection between the particular patterns that lead to a disease immunity from ones that don't. For example, if the original pattern was recessive, while the new mutant is dominant, then disease immunity of the overall population can be increased.
Beyond that, this requirement for brand new functionality has been met with at least the blood type allele and the sickle cell allele.
However, I'll concede the point anyway since I can't prove anything for my side, all I can do is guess about it.
okay...
quote:
So the point has been made that there are more alleles than could have arisen in the time since Adam and Eve.
That's true even if the new alleles are functional but mimic functions of other gene combinations. There is absolutely no basis for your requirement.
I'm still going with two alleles per gene at the Creation so I'll still be trying to prove it.
Why not four? How many alleles per gene for humans after the Flood? Isn't that just as rigorous a test?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by Faith, posted 06-04-2017 1:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by Faith, posted 06-04-2017 2:18 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 414 of 518 (811065)
06-04-2017 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 413 by Faith
06-04-2017 2:18 PM


Re: YEC requires selection on mutants
It's possible there were mutant alleles on the Ark, but otherwise I'd expect them to have all the same genes with two alleles each just like Adam and Eve.
Let me phrase the question in the terms framed by the title of this thread. There were eight folks on the ark of which three were sons of Noah and his wife. Even including mutant alleles, would there be enough mutant alleles to account for what we see today. That means more alleles to start with, but less time to grow to what we see today.
Why only two? Because it's elegant and it's sufficient to produce all the known diversity.
Whether or not two is enough, it has been demonstrated that two alleles alone did not produce the observed diversity in say, blood type as one example. But it is your proposal and not mine. You are welcome to it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by Faith, posted 06-04-2017 2:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by Faith, posted 06-04-2017 8:02 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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