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Author | Topic: Can fundamentalists explain Job 26:12-13 for me? | |||||||||||||||||||
Davidjay  Suspended Member (Idle past 2351 days) Posts: 1026 From: B.C Canada Joined: |
Heres singular verses on foundations, Read the whole chapter for a clearer insight..
Job 38:4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Job 38:6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; Psalm 11:3If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do? Psalm 18:7Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth. Psalm 18:15Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils. Psalm 82:5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. (From simple internet bible search via BibleGateway - Keyword Search: foundations ) For do notice the synchronization with Pslams written usually by King David of Old, exactly the same principle... not pre-existence but same principle of foundations before the Flood and after the Flood and into the END TIME where the foundations are shaken... (Earthquakes) And thats true geology.. even if the evolutionists can;t handle it or stand up during a minor or major earthquake. True remains.. IMHO DavidThanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...
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Davidjay  Suspended Member (Idle past 2351 days) Posts: 1026 From: B.C Canada Joined: |
Hmmmmm... channels of waters were seen, what is that talking about.
Sounds to me as a reference to the channels of water that flooded the Earth with the Flood and where the waters returned AFTER the Flood.. Thank you Jesus, something new I never saw before...Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
No, this dragon is preFlood and Yes unscientific illogical evolutionary non scientists reject this true History. Where are the bones?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2337 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
I need to ask a question about what exactly you mean by the endless rambling about the Evolution issue. You keep sidestepping the actual discussion and my actual questions, so I forced myself to wonder what your reason is for endlessly bringing it up.
I "prayed about it " and a light came on. I assumed that you were talking about biological Evolution ( what the TOE is about - biology ), but it just occurred to me that you are a Young Earth Creationist, and your beef might be against nuclear physics and the idea that hydrogen fuses to form helium . Is your "Evolution" and "Evolutionist" and "Theory of Evolution" obsession based on the YEC rejection of Fusion and the outright rejection of the idea that the stars are the source of oxygen, carbon, and nitrogen? (YEC theory on stars are the "giant candle burning down" idea I am thinking ) The winding back of the nuclear clock is opposed by YECs but it is irrelevant to this Rahab discussion actually. The YEC view is the (secular historian's) assumed cosmological view of Job, and it is assumed that he didn't consider biological life to exist until after the waters were divided but before the stars were made. Additionally, Rahab (as the Primeval Dragon that it clearly is ) isn't seen as a contradiction to the YEC view at all. The reason is that it can be seen as elemental and not biological. Job could have seen Rahab as the raw material for the later (for example ) 4 elements of Earth, Water, Fire, and Air (this is just an illustration of what Job might have thought ). The various Old Earth Creationist views also place biological life after the water division but I suppose that there is a division as to whether the stars came before or after biological life. But the Primeval Dragon is compatible with Old Earth Creationist views - which all happen to reject biological Evolution ( but certain theories allow for what you might call Cosmic Evolution though I shouldn't use the capital E since cosmic evolution is NOT the TOE which is strictly related to biology ). The Primeval Dragon is compatible with all creationism theories. I mentioned that is isn't even incompatible with Theistic Evolution cosmological views . I also pointed out that it isn't even falsifiable in purely secular scientific investigations ( due to an inability to make observations "before the bang ") . BUT UNDERSTAND WHY I MENTIONED THE BIG BANG ISSUE! All cosmological views place biological life later than the start of the Earth and the water present on earth.All cosmological views allow for something before the beginning of the universe. READY TO UNDERSTAND, David Jay? Here is the reason. I pointed it out so we wouldn't have to spend a second's worth of time worrying about the Big Bang or YEC or any various cosmological view. The sad irony was that you not only choose to dwell on secular scientific views, but you actually ended up turning the (un-necessary to start with ) dwelling into a complete, total, 100% sidestepping of the actual discussion. (To make matters far worse, you choose to bring in what appears to be the biological evolution TOE - though I am wondering if you were referring to the nuclear physics issues of the chemical elements fusing when you mention evolution ) The issue we need to examine is this : Use the Bible text of Genesis 1 and Job 26 in a harmony so we can chronologically place the entire text into sync, which will help us greatly in deciding where to place Rahab and the twisting serpent ( which are in verses 12 and 13 respectively ) Quote the entire text from both chapters but interlace the verses in a harmony. ALSO, ANOTHER QUESTION: Do you feel that God is incapable of using a primeval dragon for the raw material for the universe? You seem to deny that God could even exist before and outside the universe ( you said precisely that and more than once ) so is that the source of your denial of a pre-universe dragon?
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
LNA writes: Use the Bible text of Genesis 1 and Job 26 in a harmony so we can chronologically place the entire text into sync, which will help us greatly in deciding where to place Rahab and the twisting serpent ( which are in verses 12 and 13 respectively ) Quote the entire text from both chapters but interlace the verses in a harmony. OK let me see if i understand your request. Genesis 1:12 and Job 26:13? Or all of Genesis 1?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Davidjay  Suspended Member (Idle past 2351 days) Posts: 1026 From: B.C Canada Joined: |
I have timelines, but evolutionists timelines are NOT exact and have extreme gaps or missing links....and involve millions and billions of years.
So only creationists timelines have any validity when talking about the real life JOB.... and so of course evolutionists who have no timelines for Job and usually deny Job and get everything all mixed up, would deny a creationist literal timeline. ForeFathersGraphic Job was pre 2348 B.C. and after 4004 B.C.Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...
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Davidjay  Suspended Member (Idle past 2351 days) Posts: 1026 From: B.C Canada Joined: |
All cosmological views place biological life later than the start of the Earth and the water present on earth. All cosmological views allow for something before the beginning of the universe. READY TO UNDERSTAND, David Jay?
Lamark, let me correct, your flawed logic, as logic is SET LAW and mathematics, and evolutionists and atheists absolutely abhor math and true science and logic. So for you to understand you have to say Some cosmologists, some not ALL.You could even attempt to say, Most cosmotologists. Some meaning less than half, Most meaning more than half and not ALL. My cosmology as a creationist means you can not say or suggest or write that ALL cosmotologists agree..., use some or most. not ALLAnd majority opinion or minority opinion matters not... truth is not a marketing push or a slanted democratic voting process, NOR do ALL cosmologists agree...... All means everyone... all is all inclusive of all, and that statement can NOT be made, except to decive or intimidate the naive. Do correct your statement and statements and then you might UNDERSTAND as I understand Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given. Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...
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Davidjay  Suspended Member (Idle past 2351 days) Posts: 1026 From: B.C Canada Joined: |
I know, I know we aren't allowed to post verses and whole chapters against poor persecuted evolutionists who are so timid and shy and persecuted... Nevertheless it comes from the Creator Himself, so lets take a look and read it for ourselves anyway...just for honesty sake.
*************************************** 38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? 9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, 10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, 11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed? 12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; 13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? ****************************** IN OTHER WORDS, THE LORD IS EXTREMELY UPSET WITH JOB AND EVOLUTIONISTS, AND ATHEISTS... where were they when He measured the earth, and established the foundations, etc etc etc.. And there it is brethren and non brethren, the seas have doors, and the doors can be open and the waters from the DEEP can burst forth as they did during the worldwide flood.... more confirmations TYJ. Cornerstone thereof.. Yes, the land masses had a cornerstone, or center as mentioned and as censored.. Giza, Enochs Pillar, the common GREAT CIRCLE which shows the original equator before the shift... Pity you wouldnt be able to discuss that, becuae it also can not be discussed in science. But we can do it HERE.. Onward Christian Scientists, searching the depths of wisdom and creation IHS DavidThanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again... |
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2337 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
A comment was made about the widespread use of the Primal Dragon in the world's mythology.
quote: Then Phat made reference to the Indo Iranian history (I havn't re read the entire thread, but it reminded me of the primeval dragon being mentioned in the Macropaedia of Encyclopedia Britannica on the entry for Indo Iranian religion or something). The dates for the Ancient Middle Eastern dragon motif are relevant. The Enuma Elish text could be from the Amorite Old Babylonian period (the dates depend on the Venus tablets of Amizaduka with could be used to date the Hammurabi ascension if one works back) of around 1800 to 1500, or the Kassite period (after 1600-1500 BCE), or just after 1100 BCE. Enma Eli - Wikipedia There is the Ugaritic reference that is after 1500 BCE but prior to 1100 BCE. Then the Hebrew texts which are later still. Though Exodus 15 is food for thought because it might have something to do with the dragon slaying issue or at least its attractiveness to the late Hebrew authors. (Exodus 15 might be older than the latest possible date for Enuma Elish but the Sea Peoples - which included the Philistines - destroyed Ugarit along the way to Palestine, and the Philistines being mentioned in Exodus 15 means the Song of the Sea text is later) From J.J. Collins Introduction to the Hebrew Bible.
quote: The Vrtras were a primeval dragon among the Indo Iranians and the slaying was among the oldest parts of the Vedas. The Vedic textual source might be older (in its oral origin) than Enuma Elish and the possibility must be considered at least 50-50. The Rig Veda/Mandala 4/Hymn 42 - Wikisource, the free online library The Vedic composition might back up some of what jar said. Almost (pretty much) every other example is not proven to be as old as the Middle Eastern myths. But back to the oldest strain of the Exodus that many prominent scholars see. The view of the original exodus (in history) was that the Israelites fled in a ship by sea and composed a song to celebrate it. The mention of Philistia in the old song (chapter 15 of Exodus) dates it in the 12th century at the earliest. It could have caused the Israelites to be attracted to myths of God defeating Yam (Sea), which included dragon slaying myths of the Canaanites (and also from whatever Hurrians were still around). This view is backed up by the various strains and varieties of the dragon slaying language in the Hebrew Bible.
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