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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 417 of 591 (811631)
06-10-2017 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by Porosity
06-09-2017 11:05 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Cause hubris, arrogance, and insouciance to nature will undo us.
I disagree. I maintain that worship (extreme veneration and respect) of nature itself will undo us.
Deut 4:15-20 writes:
You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars--all the heavenly array--do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.
Worshipping nature includes the deification of human wisdom.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Porosity, posted 06-09-2017 11:05 PM Porosity has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by Porosity, posted 06-10-2017 12:40 AM Phat has replied
 Message 420 by jar, posted 06-10-2017 7:09 AM Phat has replied
 Message 425 by ringo, posted 06-10-2017 12:03 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 419 of 591 (811644)
06-10-2017 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 418 by Porosity
06-10-2017 12:40 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Nature is very much a part of worship...though the focus is always on the Creator and not on creation itself.
One of the most beautiful worship songs shows this contrast.
https://youtu.be/we-n-Zmglt0

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by Porosity, posted 06-10-2017 12:40 AM Porosity has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 421 of 591 (811648)
06-10-2017 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 420 by jar
06-10-2017 7:09 AM


Re: God Unplugged
jar writes:
Notice that even what you quoted really says absolutely nothing about human wisdom and is itself an example of human wisdom.
Do we know if the authors heard or perceived an audible presence out of the fire?
I highly doubt if they were referring to the fire itself.
And I realize that any attempt to describe God apart from human wisdom is impossible.
I do not believe, however, that the God the authors were describing was invented by them.
I believe that the God they were describing had been experienced and/or perceived by them.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by jar, posted 06-10-2017 7:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by jar, posted 06-10-2017 8:07 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 426 of 591 (811684)
06-10-2017 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by ringo
06-10-2017 12:03 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Neither of those is extreme. Extreme would be to deny global warming and instead accepting "alternative facts" which won't hold a candle to water.
Alternative explanations for science (on the creationism side) and alternative explanations for God (which one? rabbitt? Ganesha? Loki?) on the science side are both extreme.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by ringo, posted 06-10-2017 12:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 431 by ringo, posted 06-11-2017 2:10 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 427 of 591 (811685)
06-10-2017 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by jar
06-10-2017 8:07 AM


Re: God Unplugged
As I said before, I realize that any attempt to describe God apart from human wisdom is impossible.
Take two rabbis studying scripture. One may have a confirmation bias---a deeply held belief based on personal experience--that G-D is always present and is the supreme architect of wisdom.
Another rabbi, more inclined to prefer logic, reason, and reality...may label G-d as unknowable and also declare all scripture to be essentially mythology.
To judge between the two viewpoints, one would, of course, use their human wisdom. We all have wisdom that we prefer to be true.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by jar, posted 06-10-2017 8:07 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by jar, posted 06-10-2017 3:38 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 432 of 591 (812176)
06-15-2017 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 431 by ringo
06-11-2017 2:10 PM


Re: God Unplugged
What's extreme about alternate explanations for God?
The extremism is found in the eagerness to even bring up alternatives...often so readily...in an attempt to discredit the original.
Critics would say that they see no advantage to the original and see it as one of many alternatives.
I call BS on them. They know darn well what they are attempting to do.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by ringo, posted 06-11-2017 2:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by jar, posted 06-15-2017 10:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 434 by ringo, posted 06-15-2017 12:16 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 435 of 591 (812934)
06-21-2017 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 434 by ringo
06-15-2017 12:16 PM


Re: God Unplugged
I have told you that I wish there was a God. I am predisposed to believing in God. But the god you market is implausible
Why is He NOT plausible?
You wont "discover" Him.
He may well find you though.
What beef would you have with Him?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by ringo, posted 06-15-2017 12:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 436 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2017 10:31 AM Phat has replied
 Message 441 by ringo, posted 06-21-2017 3:22 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 437 of 591 (812942)
06-21-2017 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by Tangle
06-21-2017 10:31 AM


Re: God Unplugged
I could see you saying something like "I don't believe you exist, as you are a figment of religious peoples biased imaginations. IF YOU exist, however, there is not much I can do except meet you initially....so have at it."
Then again, you do have the free will to absolutely refuse to believe or even consider such a fantasy.
jar is correct in that the GOD Who is, IF GOD exists, is far different than any of us could imagine or try to market.
Where I disagree with jar is that he implies that GOD is unconcerned whether we believe or not.
You are likely to agree with him on that one...asking why in effect we need to confuse ourselves with dogma and belief when we could simply go about the business of life doing the best we can for our fellow humans.
Assuming that a GOD exists, however....are you open to knowing Him or not? Simple question
as to HOW you would know, lets leave all of those details up to GOD.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2017 10:31 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2017 12:36 PM Phat has replied
 Message 442 by jar, posted 06-21-2017 4:04 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 439 of 591 (812946)
06-21-2017 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by Tangle
06-21-2017 12:36 PM


Re: God Unplugged
tangle writes:
To get back to my original point, If god doesn't reach out to some but does to others, then he's unjust. If he does reach out to some, he's interfering with their free will. How do you respond?
Let me think this through
  • Either He reaches out to all, or jar is right and GOD is unconcerned with our relationship.
    Thus I believe that GOD reaches out to all...but in differing ways. For someone such as myself who seems to need and value the communion, God is there for me.
    jars beliefs have influenced my thoughts on these matters...so I would agree that we are charged to go and do for the least of these. Thus...through agreement with such an unction, someone such as yourself may well be relating to GOD simply by doing for others and not being all sanctimonious and religious about it.
    I can agree that GOD is unconcerned how we relate to Him...yet is concerned with how we relate to others.
    And perhaps GOD reaches out to me by sending me online relationships with people such as yourself. Who knows?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 438 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2017 12:36 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 440 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2017 1:45 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 443 of 591 (812993)
    06-22-2017 3:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 442 by jar
    06-21-2017 4:04 PM


    Re: God Unplugged
    Your reasoning would have merit IF God expected us to do it all ourselves. Personally, I think your beliefs were largely influenced by how you grew up.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 442 by jar, posted 06-21-2017 4:04 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 445 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 8:04 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 444 of 591 (812995)
    06-22-2017 3:42 AM
    Reply to: Message 441 by ringo
    06-21-2017 3:22 PM


    Re: God Unplugged
    I have a beef with anybody who threatens me.
    This is where you get delivered. Some day you will have no beef. There will be no threat. The goats go their way and the sheep go theirs. And you will be at peace

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 441 by ringo, posted 06-21-2017 3:22 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 458 by ringo, posted 06-22-2017 11:41 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 446 of 591 (813013)
    06-22-2017 9:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 445 by jar
    06-22-2017 8:04 AM


    Re: God Unplugged
    jar writes:
    Do you remember the Bible story of Joseph?
    Genesis 37-50....yes I am rereading it now....
    Should I see something new?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 445 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 8:04 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 448 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 10:16 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 447 of 591 (813020)
    06-22-2017 10:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 440 by Tangle
    06-21-2017 1:45 PM


    Re: God Unplugged
    tangle writes:
    But you've still not answered my questions - he reaches out to some but not others - therefore he's unjust; when he reaches out he removes free will by interfering - therefore he's creating worshipful puppets.
    You and ringo seem to prefer that IF GOD exists that He simply leave you alone.
    I, on the other hand, prefer that IF He exists, then He surely wants to help me and guide me.
    jar points out that (the Bible supports the idea that)God expects personal responsibility from us.. and that WE should expect it of ourselves, whether we believe in God or not.
    Matthew 9:13 writes:
    Go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.
    Now you could argue that GOD is arbitrary and thus you are not buying the Kool-Aid I'm selling. So why not make your own Kool-Aid and drink up?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 440 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2017 1:45 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 451 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2017 10:58 AM Phat has replied
     Message 459 by ringo, posted 06-22-2017 11:44 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 449 of 591 (813025)
    06-22-2017 10:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 448 by jar
    06-22-2017 10:16 AM


    Re: God Unplugged
    I see that the scripture supports your God. In fact, Joseph was a tattletale and a know-it-all and he opened his mouth too much. Favor was upon him, though.
    GotQuestions.org writes:
    In the story of Joseph and his brothers, we see the themes of forgiveness, the father-son bond, sibling rivalry, brotherly love, God’s sovereignty, and God’s greater good in times of suffering. Just like Joseph, we are called to forgive those who have offended us and see life’s experiences as part of God’s plan to help us serve others.
    This would work even if GOD was unknowable or did not exist.
    we are called to forgive those who have offended us and see life’s experiences as part of God’s plan to help us serve others.
    Thus, the charge applies to humans in general.
    Darn it jar, I don't want the God I believe in to be so darn non-favoring. I am like Joseph. My Dad loved me and spoiled me.
    I will give credit to Joseph though. He grew up.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 448 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 10:16 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 450 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 10:36 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 452 of 591 (813034)
    06-22-2017 10:58 AM
    Reply to: Message 450 by jar
    06-22-2017 10:36 AM


    Re: God Unplugged
    jar writes:
    Do you think the creator of all that is, seen and unseen would really care whether or not anyone believed?
    No, but I believe that GOD IF GOD exists expects high standards for us. Tangle claims that God(the one I market, I assume) discriminates and is arbitrary.
    Comments?
    jar writes:
    Do you remember the dream and it's interpretation?
    Yes. Basically, some could interpret the dreams as God talking to them. The story would work, however, if we took the responsibility upon ourselves to prepare for the future. Wisdom need not have a source but only a content, you may say.
    Who is supposed to put stocks away for the future?
    Pharaoh.
    Who is supposed to prepare for the Lean Years?
    Again, Pharaoh. But the story could apply to Whosoever has ears to hear, in the context of how they receive the message and its content.
    jar writes:
    We can only worship the gods we create.
    Well, to be honest, I'm only now finding out how the God I create actually behaves. That's why I told Tangle to make his own kool-aid and drink it.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 450 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 10:36 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 455 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 11:11 AM Phat has replied

      
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