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Author Topic:   Self-Replicating Molecules - Life's Building Blocks (Part II)
ringo
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Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 76 of 97 (811389)
06-07-2017 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by CRR
06-06-2017 9:56 PM


Re: Pssst! Don't tell the creationists
CRR writes:

Pssst! Don't tell the creationists, but scientists don't have a clue how life began.


The difference is that scientists are LOOKING for answers; creationists are not.
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CRR
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Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 77 of 97 (811782)
06-12-2017 7:20 AM


"Those who think scientists understand the issues of prebiotic chemistry are wholly misinformed. Nobody understands them. Maybe one day we will. But that day is far from today. It would be far more helpful (and hopeful) to expose students to the massive gaps in our understanding. They may find a firmer—and possibly a radically different—scientific theory.

The basis upon which we as scientists are relying is so shaky that we must openly state the situation for what it is: it is a mystery."

Animadversions of a Synthetic Chemist, James Tour

See also The Origin of Life: An Inside Story - 2016 Lectures (with James Tour)


Replies to this message:
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CRR
Member
Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 78 of 97 (811786)
06-12-2017 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Coragyps
02-22-2010 8:50 PM


Re: New study - self replicating evolving RNA
Self-Sustained Replication of an RNA Enzyme
Tracey A. Lincoln, Gerald F. Joyce

They actually started with 3 carefully selected RNA strings and used one to join the other two small pieces into one piece (ligation), in a carefully controlled multi-step process. It's pretty much unlike anything likely to happen in nature.


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JonF
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Joined: 06-23-2003
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(1)
Message 79 of 97 (811787)
06-12-2017 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by CRR
06-12-2017 7:20 AM


Gosh! If we don't know everything we know nothing! Who would'a thunk?

Old creationist ploy.


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Tangle
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Posts: 5166
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 80 of 97 (811791)
06-12-2017 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by CRR
06-12-2017 7:20 AM


Who was it here that said we know how life started? Anyone?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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ringo
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Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 81 of 97 (811827)
06-12-2017 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by CRR
06-12-2017 7:20 AM


James tour appears to be a shill for the Discovery Institute. Can you find a quote from a scientist who doesn't have an axe to grind?
This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
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Posts: 5166
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 82 of 97 (811828)
06-12-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
06-12-2017 12:12 PM


He's also a chemist not a biologist.

It would be more useful if they could unearth an eminent, atheistic biologist to quote from.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 06-12-2017 12:12 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 83 of 97 (811830)
06-12-2017 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Tangle
06-12-2017 12:35 PM


Tangle writes:

It would be more useful if they could unearth an eminent, atheistic biologist to quote from.


If only such a thing existed.
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RAZD
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Posts: 19234
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 84 of 97 (815779)
07-24-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
06-24-2009 10:38 PM


Update --- have self-replicating molecules become life?
quote:
Diversification of self-replicating molecules

Abstract

How new species emerge in nature is still incompletely understood and difficult to study directly. Self-replicating molecules provide a simple model that allows us to capture the fundamental processes that occur in species formation. We have been able to monitor in real time and at a molecular level the diversification of self-replicating molecules into two distinct sets that compete for two different building blocks (‘food’) and so capture an important aspect of the process by which species may arise. The results show that the second replicator set is a descendant of the first and that both sets are kinetic products that oppose the thermodynamic preference of the system. The sets occupy related but complementary food niches. As diversification into sets takes place on the timescale of weeks and can be investigated at the molecular level, this work opens up new opportunities for experimentally investigating the process through which species arise both in real time and with enhanced detail.


This also begs the question of when "life" develops -- I would say when evolution begins, and that looks like these molecules qualify.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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CRR
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Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 85 of 97 (816165)
07-31-2017 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by RAZD
07-24-2017 11:46 AM


Diversification of self-replicating molecules
Physicist Rob Sheldon made a pithy observation regarding the University of Groningen’s latest press release and the new paper by Sandownik, Mattia, Nowak and Otto: “If this paper were about anything but ‘peptides’, it would be called ‘crystallization’.”
The origin of abiotic species: Seven epic fails
This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19234
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 86 of 97 (816183)
07-31-2017 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by CRR
07-31-2017 1:17 AM


Re: Diversification of self-replicating molecules
Physicist Rob Sheldon ...

Do you mean this Rob Sheldon?

quote:
Discovery Institute > Multimedia Library > Center for Science and Culture > ID the Future (podcast) > Physicist Rob Sheldon on the History of Cosmological Thought, Pt. 1

Physicist Rob Sheldon on the History of Cosmological Thought, Pt. 1
Posted on December 26, 2016

On this episode of ID the Future, physicist Rob Sheldon talks with Casey Luskin about how there has been a paradigm shift in cosmological thought. Though cosmologists used to believe that the universe existed eternally in a static state, they now see a finite universe that had a beginning. Dr. Sheldon also explores the implications of this shift for theism, materialism, and intelligent design.


and

quote:
Reasonable Faith, Honolulu Chapter
Home > 2016 > 11 > Physicist Rob Sheldon: What ID is really about | Uncommon Descent

Physicist Rob Sheldon: What ID is really about | Uncommon Descent
November 5, 2016

“Einstein spent the last 40 years of his life trying to combine QM and Gravity and failed. Stephen Hawking also reported that he failed to find a theory of QM gravity. But the 21st century is discovering that the solution lies in ID, in design, in information. We haven’t got a QM theory of gravity yet, but we have a series of “standard models” with gobs and gobs of “fine tuning”, of design, of functional information. From the Higgs to the failure of SUSY, to the failure of dark matter WIMPS, to the failure of inflation, of BBN (Li-7 problem) and on up the chain to OOL, we have so much unaccounted-for information it’s embarrassing.”


Just asking ...

... made a pithy observation ...

"Pithy" because you like it and the implications of denigrating the fact that it is peptides?

... “If this paper were about anything but ‘peptides’, it would be called ‘crystallization’.” ...

Which becomes a meaningless statement because we are talking about peptides ... this is known as a "red herring" fallacy.

So the questions remain:

  1. do we have self-replicating molecules? Yes No ...
  2. did they "evolve" and diversify into two different types of self-replicating molecules? Yes No
  3. does this "evolution" show the possibility of life's beginning? Yes No

Inquiring minds want to know ...

The origin of abiotic species: Seven epic fails

Can you pick your best one?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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CRR
Member
Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 87 of 97 (816216)
07-31-2017 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by RAZD
07-31-2017 9:00 AM


Re: Diversification of self-replicating molecules
So the questions remain:

do we have self-replicating molecules? No
did they "evolve" and diversify into two different types of self-replicating molecules? No
does this "evolution" show the possibility of life's beginning? No

Inquiring minds want to know ... Which ones?

Edited by CRR, : image added


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19234
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 88 of 97 (816230)
08-01-2017 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by CRR
07-31-2017 7:33 PM


Re: Diversification of self-replicating molecules
So the questions remain:

do we have self-replicating molecules? No
did they "evolve" and diversify into two different types of self-replicating molecules? No
does this "evolution" show the possibility of life's beginning? No

Inquiring minds want to know ... Which ones?

Ones not in denial of the evidence, of course. People with open-minded skepticism and no preconceptions.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
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Posts: 3002
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 89 of 97 (816234)
08-01-2017 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by CRR
07-31-2017 7:33 PM


Re: Diversification of self-replicating molecules
{the cartoon}

Yes, that's the Catch-22 that creationists keep setting up to trap us in a lose-lose situation: abiogenesis cannot be proven to work until we've created life in the lab -- by creating life in the lab you've proven that it takes intelligence to create life and that it could not happen in nature.

Wrong!

A PhD Chemistry friend told me that it is impossible for us to cause a chemical reaction that cannot happen in nature. All we can do is to create the conditions for that reaction to happen, but if the reaction cannot happen in nature then we cannot force it to happen.

Therefore, if in the laboratory we can get the reactions going for life to start, then that would mean that those reactions would have also happened in nature under the right conditions. Your Catch-22 is bullshit.

So why don't we see new life springing up all the time in nature? Sidney Fox' experience with proteinoid microspheres offers the answer. Previous batches appeared to be unstable, degenerating after a few days. Then he created a new batch under sterile conditions which remained stable for years until they destroyed it because the research was completed. The reason why we do not see new life springing up all the time in nature is because of its name: food! The life that's already here just eats that stuff up!

Edited by dwise1, : Added "to trap us in a lose-lose situation"


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CRR
Member
Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 90 of 97 (816258)
08-01-2017 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by dwise1
08-01-2017 10:27 AM


Re: Diversification of self-replicating molecules
There's a difference between cannot happen in nature and do not happen in nature.

We can produce many chemical reactions in the laboratory that do not happen in nature.


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