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Member (Idle past 5928 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: As I may have said a time or two before, I believe that God created a free willed Lucifer and also created the possibility of evil ....an attractive nuisance if you will. By choosing to deny/ignore/override God, Lucifer thus became Satan. There was never any need to create "Satan". Is what you are saying that hypothetically there was never any need to create the possibility of evil? What about the possibility of ignoring God? On the one hand, you guys complain that He never reveals Himself. On the other hand, you have chosen to go with the "evidence" that proves His absence. Should God have hypothetically given you this freedom?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: As I may have said a time or two before, I believe that God created a free willed Lucifer and also created the possibility of evil ....an attractive nuisance if you will. By choosing to deny/ignore/override God, Lucifer thus became Satan. Can you help us with Biblical passages that support that position?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
No, it is not found. There are none that specifically refute the notion either, however.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
LOL.
But there really is a supporting source for your belief and it is a poem written by Durante degli Alighieri about twenty years before Columbus first voyage to the New World. That hardly seems "Biblical".
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
As you yourself would say, religious dogma and/or shared societal ideas about God and Gods nature are not limited exclusively to the book now known as the Bible.
Which of course lends support to your assertion that God is a product of human myth and legend. I believe that this is not exclusively the case. I believe that God exists and would exist without any Bibles, stories, or legends. Where we may have a point of contention involves a consensus on what characteristics such a Creator of all seen and unseen would actually have apart from what humans want Him to have.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes:
As I may have said a time or two before, I believe that God created a free willed Lucifer and also created the possibility of evil ....an attractive nuisance if you will. By choosing to deny/ignore/override God, Lucifer thus became Satan. jar writes: Can you help us with Biblical passages that support that position? In addition, I disagree with your idea that GOD is complete, rather than simply good. To me, it seems more logical that evil was created as a necessary possibility (in order to preserve free will) rather than as an absolute yang countering goods yin. I realize that Isaiah says otherwise...but I am allowing my own belief to further explain the God I want rather than quite possibly the GOD who is. If the GOD WHO Is is totally unlike the God who in my mind seems more fair and just, I would be extremely disillusioned and defiant towards such a Being. I have heard entire sermons describing why God is good all the time and all the time God is good. It is a bumper sticker in contemporary Christianity. Having Satan as a plot device...a villain who freely chose to rebel...is better in that it gives us something to resist and to hate. How on earth would we ever get along with a GOD Who not only was indifferent to our prayers but Who was at times evil towards us?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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I replied to this message here: Message 73.
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: I realize that Isaiah says otherwise...but I am allowing my own belief to further explain the God I want rather than quite possibly the GOD who is. If the GOD WHO Is is totally unlike the God who in my mind seems more fair and just, I would be extremely disillusioned and defiant towards such a Being. Yes, thank you for acknowledging you are creating the God you want. The evidence shows you are not alone in doing that. The author or authors of the Genesis 2&3 stories created a god that is very human, powerful, commanding, somewhat bumbling but also friendly, fearful, unsure but approachable. The author or authors of the Genesis 1 story created a god that is supremely competent, aloof, always sure, commanding but also apart, having no contact with the creation. Humans can only worship the god they create. The Trinity is an invention of a time hundreds of years after Jesus, not something that existed at the time any of the Bible stories were written. The Trinity is a human creation and has whatever meaning humans give it.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If it was provable, there would be no reason to believe. The only time a belief should be embraced is when it can not be proven.
Must a belief be provable before you embrace it? Phat writes:
You tell me. What possible reasons could you have for rejecting belief in leprechauns?
What possible reasons would you have for rejecting it? Phat writes:
Actually, it was believers trying to prove their beliefs that convinced me they didn't know what they were talking about.
Perhaps you came from a family of believers who made no sense.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
As I have said before, I think "free will" is a nonsense concept.
As I may have said a time or two before, I believe that God created a free willed Lucifer and also created the possibility of evil .... Phat writes:
According to Wikipedia:
....an attractive nuisance if you will.quote:The creator is responsible. Phat writes:
How does that differ from your attitude toward leprechauns?
On the one hand, you guys complain that He never reveals Himself. On the other hand, you have chosen to go with the "evidence" that proves His absence. Phat writes:
Why does God need me so badly that He's willing to burn me if I ignore Him?
What about the possibility of ignoring God? ...Should God have hypothetically given you this freedom?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Why does God need me so badly that He's willing to burn me if I ignore Him? More likely is the belief that YOU need Him and will burn yourself by playing with foreign leprechauns.
How does that differ from your attitude toward leprechauns? My attitude towards leprechauns is similar to my attitude towards a pair of fake Air Jordans sold on e-bay. I go with quality and have chosen what I consider the top quality product. You remain unconvinced that you even need a pair of Jordans and point out to us that they are all shoes. So essentially you are asking us (me) why you should buy what I market. Correct? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: The Trinity is an invention of a time hundreds of years after Jesus, not something that existed at the time any of the Bible stories were written. The Trinity is a human creation and has whatever meaning humans give it. I dont believe that humans simply invent doctrines without at least believing that the doctrine is sound.
Essential Truths Of The Christian Faith writes: The Swiss theologian Karl Barth was asked by a student during a seminar in the United States, Dr. Barth, what is the most profound thing you have ever learned in your study of theology? Barth thought for a moment and then replied, Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so. The students giggled at his simplistic answer, but their laughter was of a nervous sort as they slowly realized Barth was serious.(...)Barth gave a simple answer to a question of profundity. In doing so he was calling attention to at least two vitally important notions. (1) That in the simplest Christian truth there resides a profundity that can occupy the minds of the most brilliant people for a lifetime. (2) That even in learned theological sophistication, we never really rise above a child’s level of understanding the mysterious depths and riches of the character of God. Thus I can agree that we "make up" the God we wish to worship and that reality suggests that the GOD Who Is is likely unlike the One we desire. I challenge that notion for two reasons. (Both of them beliefs that I choose to embrace)1) GOD if GOD exists wants a relationship with us. If this isn't true, what point would there even be to believe? 2) GOD has given us an inner unction to find Him.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: I dont believe that humans simply invent doctrines without at least believing that the doctrine is sound. Humans are eminently capable of convincing themselves even the most ridiculous things are true. Note you yourself go on to say "Thus I can agree that we "make up" the God we wish to worship and that reality suggests that the GOD Who Is is likely unlike the One we desire." But this is still unrelated to the topic which is the meaning of the trinity. The answer to that question seems to be "The Trinity is a concept created by humans and incorporated as an Article of Faith in some religions". Edited by jar, : appalin spallin
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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Yes, thank you for acknowledging you are creating the God you want. We all should do that...
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
How is that more likely?
More likely is the belief that YOU need Him and will burn yourself by playing with foreign leprechauns. Phat writes:
I'm asking WHY you think one product is better quality than the other.
My attitude towards leprechauns is similar to my attitude towards a pair of fake Air Jordans sold on e-bay. I go with quality and have chosen what I consider the top quality product.
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