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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 591 (81281)
01-27-2004 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by crashfrog
01-26-2004 11:01 PM


Nonetheless, evil exists.
I thought atheists believed that evil only existed in our mind?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by crashfrog, posted 01-26-2004 11:01 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 77 of 591 (81284)
01-27-2004 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by roboto85
01-27-2004 10:56 PM


I thought atheists believed that evil only existed in our mind?
What does it matter what atheists believe? We're talking about what theists believe.
You aren't trying to change the subject, are you?
[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 01-27-2004]

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 78 of 591 (81287)
01-28-2004 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by roboto85
01-27-2004 6:30 PM


BACK TO THE TOPIC>>J.C. & El Diablo
It is societies that create the idea of evil and good, not gods.
No. According to this scenario, God created the knowledge of good and evil. Society and individuals merely act on the knowledge that was chosen for humans by the first disobedient action.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Yaro, posted 01-28-2004 2:38 AM Phat has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 79 of 591 (81293)
01-28-2004 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
01-28-2004 12:33 AM


Hold the phone phatboy!
Got only created the knowledge of it?
So who created evil then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 01-28-2004 12:33 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 591 (81307)
01-28-2004 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Yaro
01-28-2004 2:38 AM


Good and Evil
Okay, here's an analogy. Given as with all analogies it breaks down at some points.
Light is. It's a partical or wave, or whatever. Last I heard the jury was still out on that one. But in any case it is something. It is something we can measure, it is something that can be tested.
Darkness isn't. It isn't anything. Darkness is the absence of light. The only reason darkness is, is because light isn't there.
God is. He is light, he exists with all his attributes that I'm sure have been talked about several times around already. Since God is good, then anything he is (love, etc.) is good. Anything that is not like God is, is evil. God didn't create evil, the idea of evil existed as something that was not like God. By allowing free will God allowed this evil to become a reality with the fall of Lucifer. Evil was not created, it existed as opposite of what was already there. Evil exists because it is the places where God's attributes have been turned aside from.

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 Message 79 by Yaro, posted 01-28-2004 2:38 AM Yaro has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 81 of 591 (81308)
01-28-2004 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Angeldust
01-28-2004 8:04 AM


Re: Good and Evil
Evil is not the absence of good, it is the opposite of good.

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helena 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5844 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 03-27-2008


Message 82 of 591 (81311)
01-28-2004 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Angeldust
01-28-2004 8:04 AM


Re: Good and Evil
quote:
Light is. It's a partical or wave, or whatever. Last I heard the jury was still out on that one. But in any case it is something. It is something we can measure, it is something that can be tested.
Light is both at the same time, confusing but true...
quote:
God is. He is light, he exists with all his attributes that I'm sure have been talked about several times around already. Since God is good, then anything he is (love, etc.) is good. Anything that is not like God is, is evil. God didn't create evil, the idea of evil existed as something that was not like God. By allowing free will God allowed this evil to become a reality with the fall of Lucifer. Evil was not created, it existed as opposite of what was already there. Evil exists because it is the places where God's attributes have been turned aside from.
Wait a moment:
(a) God cannot be directly measured (in contrast to light)
(b) You attribute the property good to god (for which you have no prove and given some of the contents of the bible, I'm sure some would claim that this is not so, but anyways...). Now you say that by measuring "good", we can deduce God's existence? That's like saying, by knowing that light exerts a pressure (albeit small) on matter it interacts with, we can deduce the presence of light from the observation of pressure?
(c) You keep forgetting about omni-presence (so there's no place where he isn't) and omnipotence... Never mind that he's the creator of everything...
so much for your analogy.
my best regards

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Angeldust, posted 01-28-2004 8:04 AM Angeldust has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 83 of 591 (81321)
01-28-2004 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Yaro
01-28-2004 2:38 AM


Hold the Phone, Phatboy!
Yaro! My Homie! You said
God only created the knowledge of it?
So who created evil then?
To which I say that the serpent, aka El Diablo created evil by his very first act of disobedience which was claiming to be equal with God. This willful rebellion is itself evil personified. This same tendency toward self exaltation and independant thought is the impartation that humanity received through the first action of human disobedience, when Eve ate the fruit. The way out of this dilemma was solved when Jesus took all evil upon Himself and died with it, overcoming the death sentence which the personified evil had with it, and raising from the dead.
Basically, from a human standpoint, we are in a transistion process. Unlike Adam, we all now collectively know about the knowledge of good and evil. Also, however, because of Jesus, we are not subject to the death sentence imposed by God for following after the serpent( who personified evil) IF we now choose to follow after Jesus(who personified eternal life.) Its not about being little mindless robots. Its about wanting to accept God into our hearts and allow Him to guide us, rather than continuing our prior imparted tendency to raise up and act like little wannabe gods ourselves.
By the way, angeldust I like your analogy! You said:
Light is. Darkness isn't. It isn't anything. Darkness is the absence of light. The only reason darkness is, is because light isn't there.God is. He is light, he exists with all his attributes that I'm sure have been talked about several times around already. Since God is good, then anything he is (love, etc.) is good. Anything that is not like God is, is evil. God didn't create evil, the idea of evil existed as something that was not like God. By allowing free will God allowed this evil to become a reality with the fall of Lucifer. Evil was not created, it existed as opposite of what was already there. Evil exists because it is the places where God's attributes have been turned aside from.
The reason that (spiritual light) is not everywhere is because of the knowledge of good and evil, where darkness was allowed to express its personified nothingness. This gets back to the scrips that I posted earlier, to which I will add one. I will let you guys glean your own interpretations as to the meaning of these scrips. Here they are:
John 1:1-5=In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.In him was life, and that life was the light of men.The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
Rev 17:7-8=The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
================================================================
[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-28-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Yaro, posted 01-28-2004 2:38 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Yaro, posted 01-28-2004 11:20 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 84 of 591 (81327)
01-28-2004 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by helena
01-28-2004 8:28 AM


Re: Good and Evil..parting thoughts from Phatboy
Alex! You Psychic,you! Im glad that you guys who disagree with my post force me to articulate the issue more, because it helps me to understand my personal Beliefs and it also supports the initial "What If" scenario, as both God and El Diablo are contrasted quite nicely in light/dark, something that is/something that is not..(UNLESS) analogies. You said:
(a) God cannot be directly measured (in contrast to light0
Alex, can you measure and quantify the light of the universe?
(b) You attribute the property good to god (for which you have no proof and given some of the contents of the bible, I'm sure some would claim that this is not so...
This is a "What IF' post, and the way that I see it, Alex, is that before the Fall scenario, all that spiritually illuminated consciousness was light. The Tree of knowledge could be said to be the knowledge of light and dark. God wanted obedience from us so that we would freely choose to stay in the light.
Now you say that by measuring "good", we can deduce God's existence?
I see your point, Alex. How could we measure God?
You keep forgetting about omni-presence (so there's no place where he isn't)
Unless one is in the dark, so to speak. Right, Alex? Anyway Alex, thanks for chiming in. I will be in the hospital for a few days so I will not be able to respond to my post, but I am praying that my Doctors are "in the light" and not "in the dark" while they operate on me! See all of you later! Phatboy

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 Message 82 by helena, posted 01-28-2004 8:28 AM helena has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 85 of 591 (81334)
01-28-2004 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
01-28-2004 9:27 AM


To which I say that the serpent, aka El Diablo created evil by his very first act of disobedience which was claiming to be equal with God. This willful rebellion is itself evil personified. This same tendency toward self exaltation and independant thought is the impartation that humanity received through the first action of human disobedience, when Eve ate the fruit. The way out of this dilemma was solved when Jesus took all evil upon Himself and died with it, overcoming the death sentence which the personified evil had with it, and raising from the dead.
Basically, from a human standpoint, we are in a transistion process. Unlike Adam, we all now collectively know about the knowledge of good and evil. Also, however, because of Jesus, we are not subject to the death sentence imposed by God for following after the serpent( who personified evil) IF we now choose to follow after Jesus(who personified eternal life.) Its not about being little mindless robots. Its about wanting to accept God into our hearts and allow Him to guide us, rather than continuing our prior imparted tendency to raise up and act like little wannabe gods ourselves.
You get all this from the bible? I can't recall a verse that says half these things.
I mean, it seems you have a very concreate philosophy about this, but I for the life of me can find a verse where it says the serpent in the garden was the devil, or describing the story of satan for that matter.
In any case, you state that god created satan who in tern created evil. By this logic, if I shot you, and the cops came over and accused me of murder, could I not simply argue:
"Officer, I just fired the gun, it was the bullet that killd him."
Good luck with your operation BTW. I hope it's nothing serious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 01-28-2004 9:27 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 01-28-2004 12:08 PM Yaro has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 86 of 591 (81337)
01-28-2004 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Yaro
01-28-2004 11:20 AM


Could it beeeeee? Satan!(the church lady)
Yaro! Wassup? Yeah..the operation is a hernia...kinda painful, but run of the mill stuff for the Docs, I hope. Anyway...as to my unsubstantiated philosophy, there are a couple of metaphors used in the Bible that describe Satan...or evil personified..through the kings that did evil things in the ancient days. Also, Revelation speaks of the serpent as the devil. Here are those scrips, and I hope that this clarifies my philosophy a bit. People interpret all books many different ways, and since the Bible is a philosophy and not a provable fact, it is taken how people see it. Orthodox Christian Belief seems to indicate that if we are led by the right Spirit, we usually all come to a similar if not exact conclusion.
Scrip talking about the snake:
Rev 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Next is the analogies to Satan in verses which describe the character of some old kings:
Isa 14:12-15 How you have fallen from heaven,O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;I will raise my throne above the stars of God;I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.
One commentator describes the verse thus: Isa 14:12-20
Lucifer. The Roman name for the morning star (Heb. (helel), "the bright one"), which speedily disappears before the far greater splendor of the sun. This title is addressed to the king of Babylon, not so much as a specific human individual (like Belshazzar, for example), but as a representative or embodiment of Satan, who is regarded as the power behind the king's throne. The titanic pride and ambition expressed in verses 13,14 are out of place on any lips but Satan's. The epic poetry of Canaanite Ugarit often refers to the "mountain of the North" or Sapunu (equivalent to Heb. (saphon) used here) as the abode of the gods. (from The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press) Other Bible verses which infer Satan as a reality are:
Job 1:6-7= One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
This indicates that this former angel wannabe god was cast down and is now around the earth.
Matt 4:1-4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread." Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
Shows the conflict between Gods Spirit/will and the other spirit.
1 Peter 5:6-11 Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you. Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings. And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
This verse also shows the admonition given to the early church by Peter concerning the spiritual conflict.

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 Message 87 by Amlodhi, posted 01-28-2004 2:30 PM Phat has not replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 591 (81358)
01-28-2004 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
01-28-2004 12:08 PM


Re: Could it beeeeee? Satan!(the church lady)
quote:
Originally posted by Phatboy, RE: Is.14:12-15
This title (Helal) is addressed to the king of Babylon, not so much as a specific human individual (like Belshazzar, for example), but as a representative or embodiment of Satan . . .
This is very weak exegesis based on little more than presumption. Most certainly the comparison made between the king of Babylon and the "day star" (Venus) is borrowed from Ugaritic mythology which originated from the apparent celestial motion of Venus.
This fact alone explains the nature of these (metrical) verses and it is only later stories (and the circular, retroactive attribution of the name "lucifer" to satan) that would allow it to appear otherwise.
Yet, not only is this a weak and circular exegesis, but we are also explicitly informed as to the nature of the personage in question.
You stopped your quote at the end of verse 15. And yet the very next verse says:
Is. 14:16 "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying; Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake the kingdoms"
Thus, it can be shown that:
1) Your interpretation of Is. 14:12-15 is a very weak exegesis (more accurately, "eisegesis"). The adversary was never named "lucifer" and the verses are simply meant to compare the aspirations of the Babylonian king to the (mythological) celestial aspirations of Venus.
2) Is. 14:4 explicitly states that this poetic taunt is directed against the king of Babylon.
3) Is. 14:16 explicitly states that the recipient of the taunt is a man.
4) Is. 14:18-20 further describes the fact that the king of Babylon will not even be given the honor of "lying in state" as the kings of other nations do in their own house. But, rather, because he has caused the destruction of his own people and his own land, he will not join them (the other kings) in honorable burial but will be trodden as a carcass under foot.
So, since your exegesis of verses 12-15 can be demonstrated to be erroneous and virtually all of the surrounding context states explicitly that the subject of this taunt is, a man, a king, a carcass that won't get a royal burial, etc., it would seem quite apparent that the "devil" or "Satan" is not being referred to here.
Namaste'
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
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Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 591 (81410)
01-28-2004 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by helena
01-28-2004 8:28 AM


Re: Good and Evil
Although Phatboy did a pretty good job of reading my mind on a few points, I'll explain better what I said.
(a) God cannot be directly measured (in contrast to light)
I was not trying to measure God in this post. This was only to explain my point because I couldn't properly define what light was. To make my point that it was something, I put qualifiers in. Perhaps, this only shows my scientific knowledge that I've never claimed to have....
(b) You attribute the property good to god (for which you have no prove and given some of the contents of the bible, I'm sure some would claim that this is not so, but anyways...).
In the context of the thread, it did not need me to prove God was good. I believe it was an assumed because of the statement phatboy made about God creating the knowledge of good and evil, not evil itself. Besides, if God was evil or even amoral, the answer would be self-evident.
Now you say that by measuring "good", we can deduce God's existence? That's like saying, by knowing that light exerts a pressure (albeit small) on matter it interacts with, we can deduce the presence of light from the observation of pressure?
Where in the world did I say anything about measuring good? This post was not about scientifically finding God, but about where evil came from.....
(c) You keep forgetting about omni-presence (so there's no place where he isn't) and omnipotence... Never mind that he's the creator of everything...
Yeah, he knew it was going to happen, he was there, but perhaps that discussion better stay in the free will thread....
I said it was an analogy and it broke down at some points, but your reading far more into it then I ever intended to be there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by helena, posted 01-28-2004 8:28 AM helena has not replied

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 591 (81411)
01-28-2004 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Angeldust
01-28-2004 8:04 AM


Re: Good and Evil
God is. He is light, he exists with all his attributes that I'm sure have been talked about several times around already. Since God is good, then anything he is (love, etc.) is good. Anything that is not like God is, is evil. God didn't create evil, the idea of evil existed as something that was not like God. By allowing free will God allowed this evil to become a reality with the fall of Lucifer. Evil was not created, it existed as opposite of what was already there. Evil exists because it is the places where God's attributes have been turned aside from.
You're right, your post wasn't meant to be picked apart scientifically. But, you made a point I believe I was missing throughout the entire argument. Since God's attributes are already goodness personified, of course the opposite of these things is going to be wrong or evil. Well said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Angeldust, posted 01-28-2004 8:04 AM Angeldust has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2004 10:18 PM roboto85 has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 90 of 591 (81412)
01-28-2004 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by roboto85
01-28-2004 10:04 PM


Since God's attributes are already goodness personified, of course the opposite of these things is going to be wrong or evil.
But they're also going to be equal in power to God. That is to say that if the devil personifies the opposite of God, the devil must also personify evil power in equal measure to the good power of God.
Which would basically make him the God of evil, making Christians polytheists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by roboto85, posted 01-28-2004 10:04 PM roboto85 has replied

Replies to this message:
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