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Author Topic:   Exploring (mostly Cultural) Marxism in today's Left
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(3)
Message 16 of 381 (812835)
06-20-2017 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
06-20-2017 7:53 AM


Faith writes:
I'm not sure how to approach this subject so I'm just throwing it out to see what kind of response it gets. As I said I can't really read the main documents but maybe I can learn more about them in whatever discussion comes about, but I know I do know enough already that my hatred can only get deeper with greater knowledge. I know it's going to be a bumpy ride, but I'm hoping participants will try to be civil and thoughtful and contribute meaningful thoughts.
I think you're getting hung up on political descriptions and sticking names on things to blame.
You seem to be against people entering the US and killing innocent people.
That's fantastic.
So denounce people entering the US and killing innocent people.
You would get a lot more agreement from others.
The problem begins when you think such a thing can be classified as "Islam."
Now you want to denounce people entering the US and killing innocent people... but instead of denouncing that... you say "Islam is terrible! Let's stop Islam!"
And that's the problem.
To you, Islam means people entering the US and killing innocent people.
However, to the vast majority of 'everyone else,' the term "Islam" includes a whole lot of other things that have nothing to do with people entering the US and killing innocent people.
All you have is a simple terminology, definition issue.
The correct course of action isn't to try and get people across the world to start using the definition of the term "Islam" that only makes sense to you and your local friends who all use it in the same way.
The correct course of action is to stop adding confusion to the issue with the term "Islam" and focus on denouncing "people entering the US and killing innocent people." That will get you a lot more agreement, and you can start to focus on solutions instead of sitting around in a pile of frustrating confusion because you're stuck in a political game of definitions.
Stop using terms like Islam, Leftist, Marxism and Oppressor.
No one else uses the same definitions for them as you do, and all it does is add extra baggage of confusion and dilutes the points you're trying to make.
Cut to the chase.
If you don't want people coming to the US and killing innocent people... then stick with that. All your perceived "political problems" will disappear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 7:53 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 1:56 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 17 of 381 (812836)
06-20-2017 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
06-20-2017 11:24 AM


Re: The Motivational Effect of Ideology
Faith writes:
Marxism is the ideology that sent Solzhenitsyn to the gulag archipelago, and justified all the murders of Stalin and Mao.
How so?
Where did Marx call for pogroms of this kind? How did his ideologies support these pogroms?

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 Message 11 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 11:24 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 18 of 381 (812840)
06-20-2017 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Stile
06-20-2017 1:20 PM


So, let's see, I'm not allowed to see things differently than you do, I have to see them your way; you absolutely refuse to learn anything from me but I absolutely have to learn it all from you. Got it. Have a good day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Stile, posted 06-20-2017 1:20 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

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 Message 19 by Taq, posted 06-20-2017 2:02 PM Faith has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 19 of 381 (812842)
06-20-2017 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
06-20-2017 1:56 PM


Faith writes:
So, let's see, I'm not allowed to see things differently than you do, I have to see them your way; you absolutely refuse to learn anything from me but I absolutely have to learn it all from you. Got it. Have a good day.
Isn't that exactly how you are treating us? We have to see things your way or else?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 1:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 2:24 PM Taq has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 20 of 381 (812847)
06-20-2017 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Taq
06-20-2017 2:02 PM


I do know a few things it would be worth taking seriously. But I can see this thread is a lost cause.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Taq, posted 06-20-2017 2:02 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 06-20-2017 2:39 PM Faith has replied
 Message 22 by Taq, posted 06-20-2017 3:46 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 381 (812854)
06-20-2017 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
06-20-2017 2:24 PM


No it isnt. You brought up a good topic about how todays leftist ideologies are quite possibly influenced by the dark side. Your critics would say that you dont see any problem with the conservative side.
I read some good artcles lately.
Negativity bias: why conservatives are more swayed by threats than liberals
Are Today's Charismatic Manifestations of The Gifts Real? (Chris Rosebrough is a Lutheran Pastor who exposes much of false religion within contemporary Christianity. )

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 2:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 9:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 22 of 381 (812857)
06-20-2017 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
06-20-2017 2:24 PM


Faith writes:
I do know a few things it would be worth taking seriously. But I can see this thread is a lost cause.
It is rare when you can see yourself losing within 30 posts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 2:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(4)
Message 23 of 381 (812858)
06-20-2017 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
06-20-2017 7:53 AM


Chapter One
I'm not sure how to approach this subject so I'm just throwing it out to see what kind of response it gets. As I said I can't really read the main documents but maybe I can learn more about them in whatever discussion comes about, but I know I do know enough already that my hatred can only get deeper with greater knowledge.
I empathise entirely with your inability to read Das Kapital. I didn't get far in it either, and I sometimes suspect that nobody has ever actually read it all the way through. Maybe one enthusiastic student of Marxism-Leninism in 1970s Moscow struggled to end, but I'm dubious about that.
The Communist Manifesto, however, is actually quite short and not very difficult, and you can find it easy online - I actually found an audiobook version on Youtube (didn't listen far, but I'm not filled with confidence in the narrator given that he mispronounced Engels' first name). If you're just confused by the references to 19th century politics I'd be happy to explain some of the bits that you don't get.
It only has four chapters - really only three, since the fourth is simply a brief call to arms. We can take them one by one.
The first chapter is an explanation of Marx and Engels' views on the history of society*. It basically outlines that they see history as different economic classes struggling for their own interests (not always consciously).
The society of their day they see as dominated by the bourgeois class (capitalists, basically); which developed out of the townspeople of the Middle Ages and had, over the course of centuries, destroyed feudal society and absolute monarchy; remaking society in its own bourgeois image. Modern representative democracy (by which they meant 19th century republics and constitutional monarchies, which were in many ways not what we would consider modern, representative democracies) was society organised to defend and promote the interests of the bourgeoisie.
Bourgeois society, by its internationalisation; its technological modernisation and its search for new markets was eliminating all of the old social classes ("the small manufacturer, the shopkeeper, the artisan, the peasant"), but in doing so was preparing it's own destruction (in M&E's view). All of society except a small elite was being turned into one the same thing - the common industrial worker. But this meant that the ruling class were no longer facing a whole bunch of different classes with different interests - they had instead created one unified class consisting of the overwhelming majority of the world's population, who all had the same interests.
As this class began to realise it's shared interest and united it would do away with the bourgeoisie. And, unlike previous social changes, the newly dominant class would not be a small minority group establishing society in it's own image. It would be the whole mass of society who now shared one class consciousness, and communist utopia would ensue.
Now, there's much in here that is important for later Marxist thought. Here we have the basics on which dialectical materialism is based; and the brief discussion of capitalism's internal contradictions and inevitable crises is pretty much the main 'Marxist' part of contemporary economist who describe themselves as Marxist. I'm not sure if any of this if what you're seeking though.
Let me know if you're interested in Chapter 2.
*At least, Marx and Engels wrote it. It's presented as the conclusions of an international conference of Communist parties.
Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.

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 Message 1 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 7:53 AM Faith has replied

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 Message 50 by Faith, posted 06-21-2017 4:19 PM caffeine has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 24 of 381 (812865)
06-20-2017 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by caffeine
06-20-2017 4:09 PM


Re: Chapter One
Thanks for your explanation. I may get more into some of the references on the thread, including yours.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 25 of 381 (812867)
06-20-2017 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
06-20-2017 2:39 PM


I like Chris Rosebrough, I've seen some of his writings. I followed the "Strange Fire Conference" of a few years ago put on by John MacArthur's Grace Community Church in Southern California, where they did the best job I've ever seen of showing the falseness of the Charismatic Movement.

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 Message 21 by Phat, posted 06-20-2017 2:39 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 26 of 381 (812873)
06-20-2017 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
06-20-2017 7:53 AM


An amazingly ignorant post.
Your comments on race are so far off.
It is true that Marxism and communism were a driving force behind civil and equal rights, but today's black community is quite anti-communist and very nationalist. (I blame the CIA for all this hatred against Jew's and the race riots )
The neighborhoods were racially mixed from 1965 to 1968 until the 1968 riots. Then by 1969 the segregation was back, and blacks were still throwing a major fit as late as the 1990s when Jews moved into "black neighborhoods" in Harlem and elsewhere.
The American communist party was founded in 1919, and civil rights were a worldwide priority (Germany, France, United States, and the rights of Vietnam folks were called for as well as the entire world ).
Jewish individuals founded the NAACP and other civil rights organizations.
By 1965 we Americans looked well on the way toward anti-nationalism with the law being changed to allow both the massive overall increase in immigration and diverse people's to immigrate.
The neighborhood situation was very mixed, but the nationalistic Black Power movement made its cancerous debut.
Jews were kicked out of the black civil rights groups and the idea of civil rights is constantly described as a "Jewish plot" (I hear blacks say it all the time ) to do all sorts of nefarious things.
The 1968 race riots caused "white flight " and it was only because whites didn't want to fight a race war with blacks. Blacks are brainwashed to this day over the cause of "white flight" .
Much of what Faith describes is anti-communist black nationalism. Which is alive and well though the riots finally stopped completely. And many black nationalism slogans are presented as direct responses to things Jews have said ( the Black Is Beautiful slogan is a constant reminder to a racist comment a prominent Jewish scholar made in Spain almost 1000 years ago and which blacks accuse all Jews of believing )
Everybody has moved more nationalist in outlook, and much of what Faith describes is right wing anti-communistic thought. Communism is dead anyway so this is a crappy non starter thread just the way it is presented as a present issue to start with.
The only lasting victory of communism is the triumph of democracy (though popular propaganda distorts this issue too )

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Replies to this message:
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Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


(1)
Message 27 of 381 (812878)
06-20-2017 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by LamarkNewAge
06-20-2017 10:07 PM


Re: An amazingly ignorant post.
Yeah, but your whole post is amazingly ignorant, too. Not even one citation. One could reasonably come to the conclusion that you know nothing about black and African-American history in the United States.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-20-2017 10:07 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-21-2017 12:02 AM Genomicus has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 28 of 381 (812881)
06-21-2017 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Genomicus
06-20-2017 10:53 PM


Re: An amazingly ignorant post.
I know a heck of alot more than you do.
Alot of Jews went "neoconservative" after the nationalist movement in the black community reared its hateful head . In the mid-late 60s.
Marxism fell apart (as far as teachings in universities ) and essentially vanished after the 70s.
Faith is just looking at the broad "left" and calling it Marxist.
The NAACP is trying to incorporate pro-immigration and pro-gay rights into its mission, but is getting lots of pushback.
Communism and Islam never were anything but enemies but Faith throws in one cannard after another on that one too.
(I never read his book, but the neoconservative David Horowitz wrote Radical Son and it was about his leaving Marxism. He has been known to take on the anti-gay crap from the right, while exposing alot of racism from the black community. I can't vouch for all he says, but he was a good debater in the 1990s when he had that organization - the name escapes me but it was something about "culture" in the name )
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Genomicus, posted 06-21-2017 12:27 AM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 06-21-2017 4:09 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 29 of 381 (812883)
06-21-2017 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by JonF
06-20-2017 12:56 PM


Re: The Motivational Effect of Ideology
The USSR was never Marxist.
Nor was it ever Communist. For that matter, in modern times there has never been any actual Communist government (I'm having to exclude random communes tucked away somewhere).
You see, Communism is a perfect system and in order to get that perfect system you need perfect people to populate it. People are not perfect, so they must be made to be perfect. In order to do that, you need the dictatorship of the proletariat (ie, the working class). All nations that tried to become Communist got stuck in that stage, in the dictatorship of the proletariat. And they could proceed no further than that.

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Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 30 of 381 (812884)
06-21-2017 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by LamarkNewAge
06-21-2017 12:02 AM


Re: An amazingly ignorant post.
You call the Black Power movement cancerous. So, yeah, obviously you're pretty ignorant of black history and the black struggle for civil rights by any means necessary.
Blargh. Will respond to your post(s) in more depth later.
Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.

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