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Author Topic:   Exploring (mostly Cultural) Marxism in today's Left
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 46 of 381 (812903)
06-21-2017 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Genomicus
06-21-2017 5:05 AM


Re: An amazingly ignorant post.
Malcolm X was brainwashed into supporting segregation and he said as much. He was marked for death by the nationalists and he was killed by them.
There is possibly evidence that he was going to form an alliance with Dr. King too.
I don't think it is fair for you to claim to speak for the long dead man who gets alot of hateful groups anachronistically attached to him.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 47 of 381 (812905)
06-21-2017 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Genomicus
06-21-2017 5:05 AM


Re: An amazingly ignorant post.
But Dr. Ben Carson didn't mention that there wouldn't have had to be any so-called race riots if institutionalized racism didn't exist, did he?
I don't doubt that racism plays an important role and needs to be recognized, but the emphasis on racism obscures other factors, problems in the black communities themselves, fatherlessness being a big one, children left to themselves, drug culture, petty criminal culture, lack of moral leadership. Maybe those factors are also related to racism in some way, I recognize that it's hard to sort out all the influences, but the Leftist diagnosis of exclusive racist causes can misdirect attempts to solve problems if there are other causes. One cause can be the attitude that rejects education as a "white" thing, so that even reaction against racism can be a factor in problem in black communities. I'm wondering just how helpful the Leftist mindset has been to the black community, and I'm suspecting it may be more of a problem than a solution. Ben Carson had a highly involved mother who insisted that her sons read books. They both went on to have highly skilled high paying professions. The influence of the Left can unfortunately be to preserve a bitter victim mentality that doesn't seek betterment but blaming problems on society, which only makes the problems worse.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Genomicus, posted 06-21-2017 5:05 AM Genomicus has replied

Replies to this message:
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Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 48 of 381 (812907)
06-21-2017 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
06-21-2017 5:45 AM


Re: An amazingly ignorant post.
I don't doubt that racism plays an important role and needs to be recognized...
What, to you, is racism?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 06-21-2017 5:45 AM Faith has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 49 of 381 (812911)
06-21-2017 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
06-21-2017 5:45 AM


Re: An amazingly ignorant post.
I don't think too much of what you just said is accurate.
Black people actually read alot and the importance of college is recognized.
I'm not sure how some of this stuff gets around.
And here in New York, black females have a per child birth rate that is a good bit lower than the city average for all females.
Blacks don't use drugs any more than whites either.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 50 of 381 (812958)
06-21-2017 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by caffeine
06-20-2017 4:09 PM


Re: Chapter One: Communist Manifesto
Again, thanks for your summary, caffeine.
I've begun listening to the YouTube reading of The Communist Manifesto you linked. (By the way I believe the reader pronounced "Friedrich" correctly, how do you think it should be pronounced?). As always happens with Marxist thought I find myself annoyed with their abstractions and gross generalizations, and of course their main dogma which they build on their abstractions and gross generalizations, the idea that all history can be reduced to class struggles, an idea which has incited more class conflict than ever existed in the supposed history they present.
That anyone ever took such sophomoric reductionism seriously, let alone that it became the powerful ideology guiding so many nations, is mind-boggling and frightening. People who are attracted to Marxism always want to insist that all the murderous regimes that took their inspiration from him didn't follow the doctrine correctly-- they want to believe Marxism is really a utopian salvation of humanity that just wants to help people -- but unfortunately they are wrong. The doctrine itself leads to murder because it can't tolerate opposing views, it breeds paranoia and such a strong but misguided sense of moral righteousness on behalf of the class it designates "oppressed" that it easily justifies murdering opponents who are defined as interfering with their perfect utopia as enemies of humanity. Whatever class of people is demonized by those in power will become targets. This is true of any regime that follows an ideology that identifies good guys versus bad guys. That's how Nazism promoted anti-Semitism, it's how racists justify the oppression of slaves, it's how Islam promotes the subjugation, maiming and murder of women, and the mistreatment of nonMuslims including their murder.
As Solzhenitsyn said, in the quote I posted earlier (Message 11), ideology is the driving influence behind all such inhumane attitudes, always done in the name of goodness and often the name of humanity itself. Marxism itself is such an ideology. It doesn't necessarily have a fixed class of oppressors and oppressed since according to their "analysis" these change through history, leaving it open for each generation to define their own class conflict -- but it promotes the mistreatment in any given period, of the designated oppressor class by the oppressed just by their supposed "analysis" of history. It is a truly diabolical ideology, exploiting people's natural sympathies with the underdog.
So despite the fact that Islam is one of the most murderous evil ideologies ever invented by the Evil One, geared to dominating the world for the demon god Allah, once the idea is concocted that Muslims are the Oppressed class, focusing on the plight of individuals who often don't really know a lot about their own religion, making it a matter of people instead of ideology, then anyone who knows how evil and dangerous the ideology is gets angrily labeled a hateful Islamophobe and Islam gets a free pass to destroy western civilization and kill as many of the "oppressor" class as they can.
I've listened to about four and a half minutes of the reading at You Tube, gving the basic "analysis" of oppressor class against oppressed class and the whole shebang that justifies constant war in society, one group of people against another. I despise it, caffeine, it is a recipe for the destruction of society, and in fact the whole human race as Pastor Richard Wurmbrand points out in his book Marx and Satan.
I know anyone who is attracted to Marxism and thinks it is this lovely recipe for improving the lot of oppressed people has to hate what I'm saying and me for saying it. Just what I'm saying makes me the Oppressor. What a diabolical recipe MAYBE I'll recover enough to want to hear more of the reading, maybe I'll want to see your Chapter Two, but for now as I knew I would, I hate Marxism with such a passion for its undermining of all human values, civility, fairness, all things good, I can't stand any more of it at the moment.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by caffeine, posted 06-20-2017 4:09 PM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 111 by caffeine, posted 06-23-2017 1:05 PM Faith has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(2)
Message 51 of 381 (812960)
06-21-2017 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
06-21-2017 4:19 PM


Re: Chapter One: Communist Manifesto
Marxism is pretty much crap.
Marxism did not become the powerful ideology guiding so many nations. They claimed it did but what they did was nothing like Marxism.

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 Message 50 by Faith, posted 06-21-2017 4:19 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 381 (812964)
06-21-2017 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by JonF
06-21-2017 4:36 PM


Re: Chapter One: Communist Manifesto
Nor is the stuff Faith's sources are marketing even vaguely related to Marxism as expected.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


(5)
Message 53 of 381 (812966)
06-21-2017 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
06-21-2017 4:19 PM


Re: Chapter One: Communist Manifesto
That anyone ever took such sophomoric reductionism seriously....
And then you include a whole paragraph about Islam that is itself an example of sophomoric reductionism.
Just sayin'.
-
...they want to believe Marxism is really a utopian salvation of humanity that just wants to help people....
Which is also the criticism that I have with the contemporary rightwing in the US.
-
This is true of any regime that follows an ideology that identifies good guys versus bad guys.
Like Trump's? Like the current Republican majority of Congress? Like when you go on about how awful the Leftists are, and how the media and the courts are in thrall to them? It appears that almost every comment you post here is all about good guys vs bad guys.
-
Personally, I agree that a "sophomoric reduction" of almost every issue as a black and white conflict between good and evil in which no quarter can be given, that is a pretty unfortunate, often dangerous, view to take. However, your side doesn't seem to rise above this sort of thing, either.

Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. — Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 06-21-2017 4:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 06-22-2017 9:46 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 54 of 381 (812968)
06-21-2017 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Genomicus
06-21-2017 4:39 AM


Critical Theory?
Maybe you'd start to make headway here if you could offer anything substantive, like a refutation of critical theory.
First, the only reason I mentioned it was to identify it as Marxist, a Marxist body of thought that is taught in universities, which I guess you accept. Beyond that, although I'd love to be able to critique it, due to my allergy to all things Marxist I can barely read any of the stuff let alone critique it. Perhaps there are critiques out there already that you could identify to open discussion? Perhaps we could discuss elements of it as you present them from your own understanding?
But just for a start, here's the Google page definition:
critical theory noun: critical theory
a philosophical approach to culture, and especially to literature, that seeks to confront the social, historical, and ideological forces and structures that produce and constrain it. The term is applied particularly to the work of the Frankfurt School.
And from Wikipedia:
Critical theory (German: Kritische Theorie) was first defined by Max Horkheimer of the Frankfurt School of sociology in his 1937 essay Traditional and Critical Theory: Critical theory is a social theory oriented toward critiquing and changing society as a whole, in contrast to traditional theory oriented only to understanding or explaining it.
The Wikipedia article goes on to show other philosophical elements that are involved in it, but just to respond to this general description with more of an objection than a critique: everything in me says Who are you to define what society should be and impose your ideas of changing it on the rest of us? That, by the way, is how I also reacted to Obama's arrogant platform "Hope and change." Hope for whom? Hope for what? Change from what to what? Who are you to define these things, to dictate changes? Since Obama was raised in a Communist family and went out of his way to show his deference to Islam and hatred of America in everything he did, why would any sane person who loves America, who gave it any real thought, want his version of "hope and change?" There's always room for improvement in any social system, but wholesale change? Who do you think you are?
Critical Theory sounds to me like just another version of the usual Marxist program to destroy Western Civilization. I don't know if a critique could be made out of these reactions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Genomicus, posted 06-21-2017 4:39 AM Genomicus has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 58 by Genomicus, posted 06-21-2017 8:31 PM Faith has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 55 of 381 (812969)
06-21-2017 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
06-21-2017 6:26 PM


Re: Critical Theory?
Marxist body of thought that is taught in universities
And of course you can't identify any of these universities or explain how their teachings are Marxist.
We know why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 06-21-2017 6:26 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


(1)
Message 56 of 381 (812974)
06-21-2017 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by JonF
06-21-2017 6:40 PM


Re: Critical Theory?
And of course you can't identify any of these universities or explain how their teachings are Marxist.
I think there's some confusion here over economic Marxism vs. Marxist analysis. Threads of Marxist analysis and neo-Marxist explanatory frameworks contribute to much of the sociological, anthropological, etc. discourse encountered in many universities (though you also get some pretty right-wing stuff, like in many undergrad U.S. history courses + poli sci courses). E.g., Wallerstein's world-system theory draws from multiple historical approaches, both Marxist and distinctly non-Marxist (like strains of thought inspired from the Annales School).
Addendum: I think some liberals believe they have an aversion to anything "Marxist," even though broadly Marxist + neo-Marxist analysis has been used to successfully deconstruct objectively oppressive social and political institutions. There's a reason why Stephen J. Gould approached e.g. the subject of race and IQ from a partially Marxist framework.
Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.
Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 381 (812975)
06-21-2017 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
06-21-2017 6:26 PM


Re: Critical Theory?
Who are you to define these things, to dictate changes?
Answer: A citizen of a democratic republic who has every right to try to advocate for policies I believe is in the best interests of my fellow members of the commonwealth and to vote for those representatives who will try to enact those policies (or at least work out a suitable compromise with the representatives of those who disagree with me).
In fact, if I were to ask you who do you think you are to obstruct those changes or to effect changes in the other direction, I would expect you to give the same answer.

Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. — Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
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Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


(1)
Message 58 of 381 (812976)
06-21-2017 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
06-21-2017 6:26 PM


Re: Critical Theory?
I'd love to be able to critique it, due to my allergy to all things Marxist I can barely read any of the stuff let alone critique it.
I mean, isn't that intellectually problematic? Not only do you have an almost immune system reaction to "all things Marxist," but you're not willing to wade through nuanced -- and yes, perhaps a little complex -- writings and works.
The Wikipedia article goes on to show other philosophical elements that are involved in it, but just to respond to this general description with more of an objection than a critique: everything in me says Who are you to define what society should be and impose your ideas of changing it on the rest of us?
I think I prefer Horkheimer's 1982 understanding of critical theory's purpose, contrasted to prior social theories -- namely, "to liberate human beings from the circumstances that enslave them." That is important. And the problem with your objection is that all theories -- whether from Adam Smith or John Locke or Malthus -- seek to define a component of the human experience (whether social or economic, etc.). And, by imposing an ideological framework on that part of the human experience, they thereby effect change.
So, one way or the other, your objection literally applies to all theories -- so it's not a substantive, robust objection to critical theory itself. Because critical theory's purpose is to deconstruct those theories that work to enslave others. E.g., history has long been taught -- in the West -- from a deeply Euro-centric perspective. And with that Euro-centric perspective comes a profound twisting of historical reality, because viewing human experience from a Euro-centric lens (e.g., negating the significance of colonial, anti-indigenous genocide) simply cannot explain why society has come to be socially, economically, and ideologically configured in the specific way that it is.
And that's why you have a critical theory like postcolonial theory -- because it's a theory that's critical of the Euro-centric historiography that completely hides systems of imperialistic/colonial oppression that still exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 06-21-2017 6:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 06-22-2017 1:20 AM Genomicus has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 59 of 381 (812980)
06-22-2017 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Genomicus
06-21-2017 8:31 PM


Re: Critical Theory?
I'd love to be able to critique it, due to my allergy to all things Marxist I can barely read any of the stuff let alone critique it.
I mean, isn't that intellectually problematic? Not only do you have an almost immune system reaction to "all things Marxist," but you're not willing to wade through nuanced -- and yes, perhaps a little complex -- writings and works.
Yes it's intellectually problematic. Whatever I learned of Marxism I learned years ago. I really tried, I found it, as I said, irritatingly abstract and reductionistic -- floating a mile above Earth and just about never touching down. I tried because it was considered to be THE worldview everyone should embrace. When I became a Christian in my forties it was like reality and sunshine came into my mental life, it was like being born again in more ways than one, and I gave up the effort to comprehend what seemed like a mind-murdering dogma, not just Marxism but most of modern thought. To my mind the only valid critique, or really the only valid framework for society, is based on Christian principles. Freedom, peace, true justice, concern for neighbor, promotion of the most good for the most people... But of course Marx hated Christianity and so do most of today's Leftists.
Anyway, this thread is an attempt to absorb more of the ideas I'd given up. I did listen to those four minutes of The Communist Manifesto and may eventually listen to more; and I'm glad you have chosen to spell out your Marxist thinking in more detail.
More later.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Genomicus, posted 06-21-2017 8:31 PM Genomicus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Genomicus, posted 06-22-2017 2:26 AM Faith has replied

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 60 of 381 (812983)
06-22-2017 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
06-22-2017 1:20 AM


Re: Critical Theory?
To my mind the only valid critique, or really the only valid framework for society, is based on Christian principles. Freedom, peace, true justice, concern for neighbor...
But that's concern for your neighbor unless they're undocumented, brown Latinxs, right? That's the problem with your perspective. It's not actually workable. It's not practical. If you thought that Marxist analysis was floating a mile above the ground, then your perspective -- as it pertains to providing a workable framework for enacting social change -- is flying in outer space.
Out here in the real world, in the real cities, in the real streets -- where there's a police department that has no problem using unjustified lethal force against those who exist on the margins of society, where there are ICE agents who kick down the door, or raid marketplaces just because there happen to be a lot of brown people there -- out here, Marxist analysis + critical theory and deconstruction provide the explanatory, practical, and normative tools for actual liberation from oppression. Out here, it's rooted firmly in the ground.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 06-22-2017 1:20 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 06-22-2017 2:32 AM Genomicus has replied
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