The Marketing Of Christianity

This is problematic.If you can't get to heaven unless you're saved and god finds some but not others, that is plainly unjust. Additionally, if god imposes himself on some people in the way that the 'born again' kind say he does, wither free will?

I could see you saying something like "I don't believe you exist, as you are a figment of religious peoples biased imaginations. IF YOU exist, however, there is not much I can do except meet you initially....so have at it."Then again, you do have the free will to absolutely refuse to believe or even consider such a fantasy.jar is correct in that the GOD Who is, IF GOD exists, is far different than any of us could imagine or try to market.Where I disagree with jar is that he implies that GOD is unconcerned whether we believe or not.You are likely to agree with him on that one...asking why in effect we need to confuse ourselves with dogma and belief when we could simply go about the business of life doing the best we can for our fellow humans.Assuming that a GOD exists, however....are you open to knowing Him or not? Simple questionas to HOW you would know, lets leave all of those details up to GOD.

I think you missed my point. Those that say god found them are pretty much consumed by it. I've never heard a single report of someone resisting his obvious approach have you? But Phat, it wouldn't be that way - when god finds you it's apparently overwhelming. We can't know that. We can't know that. That's anything but simple question, but it IS a rediculous question. If god existed why would anyone not be open to knowing him? (Whatever that means). To get back to my original point, If god doesn't reach out to some but does to others, then he's unjust. If he does reach out to some, he's interfering with their free will. How do you respond?

Let me think this through

Either He reaches out to all, or jar is right and GOD is unconcerned with our relationship.
Thus I believe that GOD reaches out to all...but in differing ways. For someone such as myself who seems to need and value the communion, God is there for me.

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jars beliefs have influenced my thoughts on these matters...so I would agree that we are charged to go and do for the least of these. Thus...through agreement with such an unction, someone such as yourself may well be relating to GOD simply by doing for others and not being all sanctimonious and religious about it.

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I can agree that GOD is unconcerned how we relate to Him...yet is concerned with how we relate to others.

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And perhaps GOD reaches out to me by sending me online relationships with people such as yourself. Who knows?

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Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

Or he's arbitrary. Then he's discriminatory. He has a weird way of showing it. He gave you all sorts of obsessions and a difficult life but now he's letting you lean on his shoulder and he's patting your head. You've been had Phat. Wow. Atheists are relating to god. Aolologists can say almost anything and make it make sense to themselves. You can't know that. See above. You can make anything work so long as it's all mysterious.But you've still not answered my questions - he reaches out to some but not others - therefore he's unjust; when he reaches out he removes free will by interfering - therefore he's creating worshipful puppets.

You answered you own question. A real god would have no reason to hide. But the proponents of a fake god have every reason to pretend he's hiding. I have a beef with anybody who threatens me.

Why?Do you think the creator of all that is, seen and unseen would really care whether or not anyone believed?Pre-teen boys and girls worry about whether someone believes in them or likes them but hopefully they do not remain teens.

Your reasoning would have merit IF God expected us to do it all ourselves. Personally, I think your beliefs were largely influenced by how you grew up. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This is where you get delivered. Some day you will have no beef. There will be no threat. The goats go their way and the sheep go theirs. And you will be at peace

First, of course a persons beliefs are influenced by how they grow up. That is true for everyone.But there are very few instances in the Bible of God not expecting the people to do it all themselves and lots and lots of examples of God actually telling them to do it themselves.Do you remember the Bible story of Joseph?

Genesis 37-50....yes I am rereading it now....Should I see something new?

You and ringo seem to prefer that IF GOD exists that He simply leave you alone.I, on the other hand, prefer that IF He exists, then He surely wants to help me and guide me.jar points out that (the Bible supports the idea that)God expects personal responsibility from us.. and that WE should expect it of ourselves, whether we believe in God or not. Now you could argue that GOD is arbitrary and thus you are not buying the Kool-Aid I'm selling. So why not make your own Kool-Aid and drink up?

Do you remember the dream and it's interpretation?AbE:Who is supposed to put stocks away for the future? Who is supposed to prepare for the Lean Years?Edited by jar, : hit wrong key

I see that the scripture supports your God. In fact, Joseph was a tattletale and a know-it-all and he opened his mouth too much. Favor was upon him, though. This would work even if GOD was unknowable or did not exist. Thus, the charge applies to humans in general.Darn it jar, I don't want the God I believe in to be so darn non-favoring. I am like Joseph. My Dad loved me and spoiled me.I will give credit to Joseph though. He grew up.

Two different things and as long as you remember that all is fine.You create the God you believe in.The God in the Joseph fable is the God the author of that story created.The God in Genesis 2&3 is kinda like what you want. Even after Adam & Eve screwed up that God made them clothes and stayed in touch with them in future chapters of the story that author created.Though the God the author of Genesis 1 created has absolutely no contact or communion with any of the creations.We can only worship the gods we create.