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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 453 of 591 (813038)
06-22-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 451 by Tangle
06-22-2017 10:58 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Tangle writes:
I don't prefer anything, I'm an atheist - god doesn't exist. My questions were an attempt to show you that there's no logic in what you say. God can't reach out to individual people, if he did he'd be unjust, discriminatory and be depriving people of their free will.
You can't know that.
We are simply being hypothetical. I am not asking you to believe in the God i market, nor in jars. I am inviting you to hypothetically create your own god.
God can't reach out to individual people, if he did he'd be unjust, discriminatory and be depriving people of their free will.
OK, good start. You have created a God Who can't reach out to individual people without violating their free will. Am I correct? If so, how is God supposed to get their attention so as to allow them to suspend their disbelief long enough for it to not count as a violation?? (keep in mind we are obviously talking hypothetical)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2017 10:58 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2017 11:11 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 456 of 591 (813042)
06-22-2017 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 455 by jar
06-22-2017 11:11 AM


Re: God Unplugged
jar writes:
Does your God care more about you than about pond scum?
I can't know.
Darn it...you have just shown me that your whole idea of GOD being unknowable actually makes sense! ahhhhhhh!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 11:11 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 11:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 460 of 591 (813050)
06-22-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by ringo
06-22-2017 11:44 AM


Re: God Unplugged
That's not a very good marketing strategy, trying to sell us what YOU want.
Im just trying to convince you that you need the product.
I'll split my commission with you if we make a deal.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by ringo, posted 06-22-2017 11:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by ringo, posted 06-22-2017 11:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 461 of 591 (813051)
06-22-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by ringo
06-22-2017 11:41 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:
Some day you will have no beef. There will be no threat. The goats go their way and the sheep go theirs. And you will be at peace
ringo writes:
How is that not a threat? The goats are cursed into everlasting fire.
Critics would say that the goats cursed themselves.
Don't tell me you are defending the goats now!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by ringo, posted 06-22-2017 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 11:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 464 by ringo, posted 06-22-2017 11:53 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 465 of 591 (813212)
06-24-2017 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 464 by ringo
06-22-2017 11:53 AM


Re: God Unplugged
ringo writes:
How do I know I'm not going to be a goat?
Well, you could try as hard as you can to feed as many as you can and give spare change to alleviate any consciousness pangs. Also stay as far from religion as you can. They breed goats.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by ringo, posted 06-22-2017 11:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by ringo, posted 06-24-2017 12:26 PM Phat has replied
 Message 467 by jar, posted 06-24-2017 12:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 468 of 591 (814324)
07-06-2017 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by ringo
06-24-2017 12:26 PM


Re: God Unplugged
ringo writes:
Don't buy this nonsense that everlasting torment is your own fault.
I suppose you would blame God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by ringo, posted 06-24-2017 12:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by ringo, posted 07-07-2017 11:40 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 470 of 591 (814349)
07-07-2017 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Tangle
10-02-2016 4:42 AM


Re: repeating old material
Tangle writes:
You can be forgiven for believing in "a" god - at least until we know more about how our universe works - but you also believe in the ridiculous idea of religion.
Not totally. I rarely attend church lately.
Tangle writes:
You believe in an interventionist god that requires worship and condemns all other belief systems and their believers.
No. The God I believe in does not require worship. He desires relationship through prayer...largely for our benefit rather than His. No belief system is condemned, but He desires to draw all men unto Himself.
Tangle writes:
You believe in heaven and, I suppose, hell and all the daft human invented biblical trappings.
I focus on the present. I do not merely parrot belief like a sheeple.(Buzzsaws favorite word)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Tangle, posted 10-02-2016 4:42 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by Tangle, posted 07-07-2017 12:16 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 471 of 591 (814350)
07-07-2017 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 469 by ringo
07-07-2017 11:40 AM


Re: God Unplugged
I see no evidence of guilt. I see no connection with your metaphor. Hell, if hell exists was never created for fallen humanity nor innocent children. You gotta work to get there. Choose your works wisely.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by ringo, posted 07-07-2017 11:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by ringo, posted 07-07-2017 11:55 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 475 of 591 (821816)
10-13-2017 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
03-26-2016 12:57 PM


Re: Christianity 101
I'm continuing the Marketing Of Christianity Topic. A couple of new questions have come up.
If you recall, we were discussing at length the character and motive of Saul Of Tarsus 3.0, otherwise known as Paul.
jar writes:
Paul would only be happy marketing a new Pauline Christianity. Paul was not happy marketing James' Christianity or Peter's Christianity, Paul insisted on marketing Paul's Christianity. Pauline Christianity is based on Paul amplifying and explaining what Jesus really meant. What you see in Paul's Epistles is Jesus through the filter of Paul.
Remember that Jesus ministry only lasted 2-3 years.
Paul converted when he was about 25-30 year old and his ministry lasted for over 30 years, ten times as long as Jesus ministry.
Who wrote Jude? Zondervan says this:
The book of Jude tells us that it was written by Jude, slave of Jesus the Anointed One, and brother of James.
There is a consensus that the brother of James identifies the author as the brother of that James who led the community of Jesus-followers in Jerusalem from at least 40 CE until his execution in 62 CEin other words, the same person who wrote the book of James.
That would make Jude the younger brother of Jesus. In lists of Jesus’ brothers, James is always listed first and Jude is listed last (Matthew 13:55) or next to last (Mark 6:3).
But note that neither Jude nor James mentions a family relationship between them and Jesus.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 03-26-2016 12:57 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by jar, posted 10-13-2017 7:17 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 478 of 591 (823972)
11-20-2017 1:58 PM


Food For Thought
Concerning the marketing of Christianity, I've come across several blogs on the internet lately that have in my opinion some persuasive words and food for thought.
The first one is titled The Christians Making Atheists by John Pavlovitz.
It is short, to the point, and in my opinion worth fodder for further discussion.
Edited by Phat, : punctuation

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by Pressie, posted 11-21-2017 6:05 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 480 of 591 (824003)
11-21-2017 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 479 by Pressie
11-21-2017 6:05 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Your comment certainly calls to mind the reason that one is or is not a believer. Biblical Christians may claim that the experience which they had at one point--the well known Born Again claim popularized by evangelist Billy Graham, was what they chose at a certain point. Supposedly, after such an experience, the choice becomes internally obvious.
As an atheist, you mention the E word--evidence---and say that is what stopped you from accepting the call. So what do we make of this? Is the difference between believers and non-believers simply a matter of choice? Past experiences? Upbringing? Or does God Himself pick and choose? (Or are some people rational enough to see that not only is the Emperor wearing no clothes but that there is no Emperor! ) Personally, I go with confirmation bias. Some of us want to have a guiding father figure while others recoil at the prospect of spending eternity enslaved. In addition, some of us need evidence in order to make important decisions, while others are emotionally impulsive.
The article concludes by saying:
the reason the Church soon will be teetering on the verge of extinction and irrelevance, will be because those entrusted to perpetuate the love of Jesus in the world, lost the plot so horribly, and gave the world no other option but to look elsewhere for goodness and purpose and truth.
Soon these Christians will ask why humanity has rejected Jesus and we will remind them of these days, and assure them that they have not rejected Jesus at allthey just found no evidence of him in the Church.
And this brings up a point. Perhaps if the church were more loving and relevant, more atheists would attend out of the social need to do something relevant and fun for other people---regardless whether they believed in God or not. Sadly, the secular groups have met the need for social interaction much better than the phoniness of todays church. Tangle has said it all along---religion is dying globally...on the way out.
Edited by Phat, : added

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Pressie, posted 11-21-2017 6:05 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by Pressie, posted 11-21-2017 7:22 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 486 by Tangle, posted 11-21-2017 8:28 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 487 by dwise1, posted 11-21-2017 10:30 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 482 of 591 (824005)
11-21-2017 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 473 by Tangle
07-07-2017 12:16 PM


Heaven & Hell
Tangle writes:
You're telling me that you don't believe in heaven and hell?
What I will say is that I don't believe that we simply cease to exist once our physical bodies die. It is equally difficult to believe in a place with streets of gold where people sing praises for eternity to God. jar has mentioned before how that would be worse than hell.
And I dont believe in a place of eternal torment. If God is as loving as many suggest, He would most certainly give people the option of ceasing to exist, should they not make the cut. So in conclusion, for me not believing that we simply cease to exist means that I believe in a positive future after this life.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by Tangle, posted 07-07-2017 12:16 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by jar, posted 11-21-2017 7:53 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 484 of 591 (824009)
11-21-2017 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 483 by jar
11-21-2017 7:53 AM


Jesus as Mythos
jar writes:
What does that mean? What would be evidence of Jesus?
The point has been brought up before that there is no evidence that Jesus even existed. I disagree with this statement because I find that the issue is far from conclusive, but in any event, I will agree with you that the issue of whether Jesus existed, exists, is or is not God, or that GOD either exists or doesn't is irrelevant.
Santa Claus exists only because people don the traditional suit and imitate his legendary character. If more people did the same with Jesus, Jesus would exist even as mythos. I'm not fully persuaded by your overall arguments on this topic, first because I don't agree with the accusation that the editors and redactors had an impure motive.
Some evidence exists that much was added to the compilation of the Bible since Jesus allegedly died and resurrected.
In order to find current evidence, one has to look at the church. And, as the article attests, we dont do a very good job of donning our suits and going out and doing. In conclusion, the only evidence that we have of Jesus Christ is the behavior and actions of his followers. Speaking for myself and to myself individually, the only evidence that I would accept involves the behavior and actions of myself and others. I'm still waiting...

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by jar, posted 11-21-2017 7:53 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 488 by ringo, posted 11-21-2017 11:15 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 489 of 591 (824043)
11-21-2017 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 488 by ringo
11-21-2017 11:15 AM


Re: Jesus as Mythos
ringo writes:
The behaviour of Christians can not be distinguished from the behaviour of atheists. If the behaviour of Christians was evidence of Christ, wouldn't the behaviour of atheists be evidence that there is no God?
Not necessarily. The behavior of any human may well be evidence of some external influence. I cannot prove it, however.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by ringo, posted 11-21-2017 11:15 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by dwise1, posted 11-22-2017 1:56 AM Phat has replied
 Message 493 by ringo, posted 11-22-2017 2:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 491 of 591 (824061)
11-22-2017 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 490 by dwise1
11-22-2017 1:56 AM


Re: Jesus as Mythos
I could do better. There have been times I have been fruitful and other times I have been lazy and selfish.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by dwise1, posted 11-22-2017 1:56 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 492 by jar, posted 11-22-2017 6:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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